Discussion Is PENZOIL Marine full synthetic good or bad?

[Capt. Roll]

	Quote: Originally Posted by RappyMan
	Well - the back story is that my flying friend called the Penzoil Air-Cooled oil that I was using "crap" and said I needed to drop it and start using the full synthetic Marine oil. I still have a small stash of the Penzoil AirCooled - just checking to see if it was "crap" or okay. There's motivation to move on to a completely different oil that is accepted as "great stuff" and not offend my friend by not using his Marine stuff.

Pennzoil Air-Cooled two cycle is a very good product, same for the Pennzoil Marine two cycle.

Oils can be formulated for specific operating requirements to provide a "best" protection for the application. In general, synthetic based lubricants are superior to mineral based lubricants. When mixed correctly both will do the job. If you consider a two cycle engine to be more of an extreme/harsh operating environment (maybe due to the heat and speed) then a synthetic may, over the long run, be a better choice.

BTW, I'd think the Shell and PZL would be similar since Shell does own the Pennzoil brand.

[TimBle]

Pennzoil products are rebranded Shell products.

The Marine Oils formulated for fuel injected engines tend to be lighter viscosity than the air cooled products. However modern formulations actually use a base oil that is blend of two base oils to provide multi grade type performance ad allow cross over between air and liquid cooled engines oils. Most of the modern TCW-3 oils are blended this. Usuallu on the label it will state "Also suitable for air cooled engines" If no mention is made then errr on the side of caution and rather use a oil for air cooled engines.

[aussiesteve]

	Quote: Originally Posted by RappyMan
	Well - the back story is that my flying friend called the Penzoil Air-Cooled oil that I was using "crap" and said I needed to drop it and start using the full synthetic Marine oil. I still have a small stash of the Penzoil AirCooled - just checking to see if it was "crap" or okay. There's motivation to move on to a completely different oil that is accepted as "great stuff" and not offend my friend by not using his Marine stuff.

Pennzoil air cooled (usually used at 30:1 or 32:1) is far from crap for our toy plane engines. In fact, it (and it's twin brother sold under the Shell name) is about the best mineral oil around for our purposes.
Pennzoil Marine is a bad move for our toy plane engines. It is designed for cooler jacketed engines and does not give the same level of protection for our purposes as the air cooled oil does.

Your flying buddy tried heading you in the wrong direction. Here are some indications as to his knowledge level.

Does he spend much time "tuning" to get them "just right" ?
Is he good at deadstick landings?
Does he buy a lot of engines then replace them with others on a regular basis?

If the answer is yes to any of those, he may not be the best advisor.

Some other good choices in oils for our planes are:
Redline Racing oil
Stihl Ultra HP
Castrol TTS 2T Racing
Mobil 1 2T


On that list, I prefer to use 40:1 mixes as the engines develop more power and get better protection - others are happily running them at 50:1

[RappyMan]

I really appreciate all the help on this one - glad to hear the Penzoil air-cooled is still good. I think I might switch to the Stihl Ultra HP when it is gone. My flying buddy has a lot more experience and is generally the guy to go to on motors - something didn't seem right though after trying the Marine stuff though. Glad to get a better understanding on what is going on.

[wingwall]

I second Brian Smith and aussiesteve. Been using Pennzoil 2-Cycle Air-Cooled in my rebuilt BME 111 on recommendation from BME for about 8 years. Engine still runs great. BME had said it was the oil with the least deposits they had seen on engines returned to them for service, so that's what they were recommending. Breakin at 32:1 and stay with that mixture.

Also, second the Stihl Ultra HP. Have a Stihl weed trimmer that still runs great after 26 years, although started with other Stihl 2-cycle oils. Don't recall how long on Stihl Ultra HP. Also, approximately 32 years on a Husqvarna chainsaw on same Stihl oils. Typically use at 50:1. Don't use chainsaw too often, so had to have carb on it rebuilt twice, last one about two years ago.

[TimBle]

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/u...c+2+cyclel.pdf

If this is the product in question then I believe it is more than good enough for the job at hand and will concur with your buddy that its suitable for use in your engine.
What you want is a high VI oil. Generally air cooled engine oils are lower VI due and lower viscosity because generally air cooled engines are used in industrial applications. Specialised apps like high performance motorcycle engine oils (2 stroke) use higher VI and slightly higher viscosity base oil.
I compared the viscosity at 100C of both Pennzoil Marine Full Synthetic 2 cycle to Shell Advance Ultra 2 (which is what I currently use in my Mintors, DLE and MVVS) and they both are 9cSt (Well 9 and 9.1 for the Pennz product).
The Pennz product has a higher VI so it's viscosity at 40C is lower than the Pennz product (and that makes it suitable for oil injection and fuel injection outboards).

Generally I agree that marine outboard oils are not completely suitable for our use but a proper answer really requires evaluation on a case by case basis.

So I don't think your buddy is wrong at all.

[sherman89]

If you are having problems with your rc engines with the oil change and you have done nothing else to cause the problem then it sure seems to me that the oil is not working for you. Marine oil per the manufacturer is blended for marine use not air use. Get the Stihl HP Ultra and be done with it. Let's not kick the dead horse.

[TimBle]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Captinjohn 2
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RL-00415J Mystik Marine Premium 2T OBMO CITGO RL-00416J Mystik JT-4 2-Cycle Premium Plus OBMO CITGO RL-00417J Stroker OB 40 Tru-Blu Oil Australia Pty Ltd. RL-00418J West Marine Pure Oceans Premium 2-Cycle Outboard Oil West Marine RL-00419J Marine Outboard Two Stroke Oil Penrite Oil Company Pty Ltd. RL-00420J Caltex Super Outboard 3 Chevron International Technical Center RL-00421J Regatta Petron Corporation RL-00422K Brad Penn Low Pour Universal 2 Stroke Engine Oil American Refining Group RL-00424K G-OIL Green Earth Technologies, Inc. RL-00425K Bardahl Nepton TC-W3 Bardahl Asia Pacific Pte ltd RL-00426K Cenex Premium Ashless Two-Cycle Engine Oil CHS Inc. RL-00427K Mobil Outboard Plus ExxonMobil Corporation RL-00428K Mobil Yamaha 2T ExxonMobil Corporation RL-00429J Casey's Drive Professional Series 2-Cycle Outboard Engine Oil Warren Distribution RL-00431K Kawasaki Jet Ski HP Watercraft 2-Stroke Kawasaki Motors Corp., U.S.A. RL-00436K Castrol Outboard Super TT Nautico Plus Lubricants UK Ltd Technology Center RL-00438K Repsol Nautico Outboard & Jet Ski 2T Repsol YPF Lubricantes T Especialidades S.A. RL-00440K Petro-Canada Outboard Motor Oil Petro-Canada Lubricants RL-00442K Mystik Ultimate High Performange Engine Oil CITGO Petroleum Corporation RL-00443K Shell Advance Snowmobile Oil Shell Oil Products US RL-00444K Nautilus Premium Outboard Oil Shell Oil Products US RL-00445K Quaker State 2-Cycle Motor Oil Shell Oil Products US RL-00447K Lucas Land & Sea Lucas Oil Products, Inc. RL-00453L SuperSyn Outboard 2-Cycle Marine Oil Smitty's Supply Inc. RL-00454L Farm Oyl Hi-Performance 2 Cycle CHS Inc. RL-00456L Castrol Super Outboard Lubricants UK Ltd Technology Center RL-00459L Castrol Super Outboard Plus Lubricants UK Ltd Technology Center RL-00460L Castrol Super Outboard Plus Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-00462L Spectrol 2-Cycle TC-W3 Motor Oil Delfin Group USA, LLC RL-00463L Ultimate 2-Cycle TC-W3 Motor Oil Delfin Group USA, LLC RL-03053 Lubrimatic Lubrimatic Products RL-10081G Castrol Super Outboard Plus Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-10140 Avia Outboard Thevenin & Decrot Lubrifiants RL-10541D Yacco Outboard 100 2T Yacco - R&D C.T.L. RL-11610L Marine 2-Stroke Engine Oil Bel-Ray Co., Inc. RL-20070L Castrol Outboard Super Plus 2-stroke Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-20084B Pennzoil Marine 100% Synthetic Outboard 2-Cycle Oil Shell Oil Products US RL-20097F Neptuna 2T Bio Jet TOTAL Lubrifiants RL-20111 National TC-W3 Pinnacle Oil, Inc. RL-24011 Fire Star Pinnacle Oil, Inc. RL-26638G 76 Unimix 2-Cycle Oil ConocoPhillips RL-26639G Conoco XHP 2-Cycle Engine Oil ConocoPhillips RL-26640G Kendall GT-1 2-Cycle Lubricant ConocoPhillips RL-26641G Phillips 66 Injex 2-Cycle TC-W3 Oil ConocoPhillips RL-27002G Pennzoil Outdoor Multipurpose Shell Oil Products US RL-27003G Pennzoil Marine Premium Plus Shell Oil Products US RL-27004G Pennzoil Marine XLF Shell Oil Products US RL-27005G Shell Nautilus Outboard Shell Oil Products US RL-27006G Wal Mart Super Tech Outboard Shell Oil Products US RL-27038F Cabela's Signature Series Semi-Synthetic Oil Lubrication Technologies, Inc. RL-27050H Ace 2-Cycle Outboard Engine Oil Olympic Oil Limited RL-27051H Master Mechanic 2-Cycle Outboard Engine Oil Olympic Oil Limited RL-29018F Ravenol Outboardoel 2T Teilsynth Ravensberger SchmierstoffvertriebGmbH RL-29019G Ravenol Watercraft Fullsynth 2-Takt Ravensberger SchmierstoffvertriebGmbH RL-29023L Castrol Super Outboard Plus Lubricants UK Ltd. 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RL-30103K Lubrax Nautica Gasolina 2T / Petrobras Petrobras RL-31350 "Super S" Premium Outboard Oil Smitty's Supply, Inc. RL-31352 SureGuard Smitty's Supply Inc. RL-31353K Crown Outboard Smitty's Supply, Inc. RL-32034E MG Jayaco 2-Cycle and Outboard TC-W3 Importadora La Plaza RL-32257 Unil Opal Outboard TCW3 UNIL OPAL SAS RL-33201M Biomarine Outboard Two Stroke Penrite Oil Company Pty Ltd. RL-34201E Phillips 66 Synjex 2-Cycle Motor Oil ConocoPhillips RL-40462F Irving 2 Cycle + Coastal Blending & Packaging RL-40463F Carquest 2 Cycle Engine Oil Coastal Blending & Packaging RL-51030 Q8 Outboard Kuwait Petroleum Research RL-56623 MOTUL Outboard 2T MOTUL RL-56669E Valvoline Super Outboard 2T Ashland Nederland RL-56670E Mobil Outboard Plus ExxonMobil Corporation RL-59702G Valvoline Synpower Outboard 2T Ashland Nederland RL-60104F Itasca Universal 2 Cycle Outboard Engine Oil Warren Oil Company, Inc. RL-60560 SUPRA 3 Eduardono S.A. RL-70172F Coastal TC-W3 Warren Oil Company, Inc. RL-70175L CARQUEST 2-Cycle Engine Oil TC-W3 Warren Oil Company, Inc. RL-80086G AP Lube 2-T OB TC-W3 AP Oil International Limited RL-80088G Power Marine TCWIII EMARAT RL-80115D Protec 2T Super Outboard Oil ENOC International RL-81182 Castrol Super Outboard Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-82002K NAUTIC PLUS Commercial Roshfrans, S.A. de C.V. RL-82008K GULF GREEN 3000 Gulf Oil International RL-90000G Ravenol Outboardoel 2T Mineral Ravensberger SchmierstoffvertriebGmbH RL-90001G Ravenol Outboardoel 2T Fullsynth Ravensberger SchmierstoffvertriebGmbH RL-90044D Yacco Outboard 1000 2T Yacco - R&D C.T.L. RL-90045F Nautimar Biosynthetic Petronas Lubricants International RL-90050L Marine Biodegradable 2-Stroke Engine Oil Bel-Ray Co., Inc. RL-90550D Galp Oceanus Bio Petrogal RL-91506H NYCOLUBE 210 NYCO RL-92002B Gulf Pride 3000 Gulf Oil International RL-92007J West Marine DFI Synthetic Blend Outboard Oil TC-W3 West Marine RL-92010J Resolute 2-Cycle TC-W3 (for Fleet Wholesale Supply Company) Fleet Wholesale Supply Company RL-92018J Castrol Outboard Biolube 100 Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-92019J Supergard Marine Plus CITGO RL-92101C Nissan Marine Premium Outboard Motor Oil Tohatsu America Corp. RL-92201 Galp Oceanus Petrogal RL-92333D Chevron 2-Cycle Oil TC-W3 Chevron Global Lubricants RL-92334D Havoline Two-Cycle Engine Oil TC-W3 Chevron Global Lubricants RL-92340L Castrol Outboard 2T Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-92402B Rock Oil MP3 Sports Rock Oil Company RL-92804H Suzuki Outboard Oil 2-Stroke Lubricants UK Ltd. Technology Center RL-92805 JET SPEED 2T Buscher AG Langenthal-Motorex RL-93000J West Marine Ultra High Performance/Ultra Synthetic Blend TCW3 2-Cycle Outboard Oil West Marine RL-93002J Caltex Super Outboard 3 Chevron International Technical Center RL-93015J MAG 1 Warren Distribution RL-93016J Super Tech Warren Distribution RL-93018J MFA Oil Warren Distribution RL-93021J Pure Guard TC-W3 Omni Specialty RL-93022J Master Pro TC-W3 Omni Specialty RL-93030J 2T Plus (Advanced) Arab Investments Ltd. RL-93101 Klotz TC-W3 Klotz Synthetic Lubricants RL-93302K INA Outboard Plus Maziva-Zagreb Ltd. RL-93340 OCEAN FS 2T BIO Buscher AG Langenthal-Motorex RL-93399K MOTUL Outboard Synth 2T MOTUL RL-93938K MOTUL Outboard Tech 2T MOTUL RL-94102B Aqua Max - 2 Morris Lubricants RL-95102C Tohatsu Premium Outboard Oil Tohatsu America Corp. 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The oils listed in bold are oils I know are multi functional i.e they are used inair cooled as well as liquid cooled engines.
The product subject to this thread I'm not 100% certain of but its pretty similar to the Shell Advance range of motorcyle oils.
The fact it is High VI and high Flash, expressly formulated for high performanc engines is a pretty good clue that its likely also multifunctional and labelled different when marketed to different end users.
Its not as black and white as "use this and be done with it."

[Rototerrier]

Figured I would jump in here with a different perspective.

I fly 2 gasser helicopters that run consistently in the 12500-14000 rpm range and don't get even close to the amount of cooling and airflow that air engines do.

I have been running pennzoil marine (this EXACT oil in question by the OP) for over 2 years. Both my engines are $500+ modified engines by TRM (Toxic Racing) and BH (BH Hanson). Both oils have been tested and BH Hanson even recommends it as an option.

The Oil was originally tested and verified to work exceptionally well by Chris Bergen of Bergen RC Helicopters and has been used and is currently being used by a very large segment of the Gasser RC Heli Community. You can do a search at Helifreak and Runryder.com and see that this oil has undergone some serous discussion and scrutiny.

I am currently running it in my DLE35RA and have had the engine apart and it looks wonderful on the inside...just like the rest of my engines.

The ONLY complaint I have ever had is that it does build up a small amount of carbon. BUT, I have yet to find an oil that doesn't. There are many variables to that and, per Al at TRM, a small heart shaped carbon pattern on the top of the piston is normal.

In summary, using this oil is perfectly fine. It runs exceptionally well and WILL NOT damage your engine. If you are concerned, as others have stated, there are tons of oils out there to choose from and at the end of the day, if it makes you feel better, go with something else. BUT.....you can run it and your engine will be perfectly fine.

Anyone who states anything negative about it is simply misinformed or offering pure opinions. We all have opinions, but my statements and results are based on facts collected and experienced by myself and experts in the RC engine industry...not weekend worriers with a keyboard and a mouse.

To answer the OP specifically: PENZOIL Marine full synthetic is GOOD

[antique]

As is Super Tech two stroke from Wal Mart...anyone can compare the MSDS stats...

[3daviator]

Rototerrier, any pics of the Heli's ? Sounds intersting. You mentioned less cooling and high rpms , what size engines are they and what kind of cylinder temps are you seeing?

[Rototerrier]

I don't have anything recent.

Here was a build thread for one of them a couple years ago.

http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=197096

They are much different now.

One engine is a TRM 270 TT and the Other is a Hanson 29 3D Max which is a 29.5

[antique]

Both of which are modified Zenoah engines. 14,000 + rpm....
Otherwise known as underpowered overweight boat anchors by the "experts" on the internet....

[3daviator]

Nice flight Rototerrier. I've seen glow and turbine Heli's in person but never gas, pretty cool. I did notice that the engine in your build thread has a flywheel with cooling fins, are they all like that? Seems like they would need to be or they would overheat.
Way back when I read an extensive test article done by someone using Rotax Engines in Ultralights the marine oil showed heavy carbon deposits while the air cooled penzoil did not. it may be different for you with the higher rpms and lighter engine loading? What ratio do you run?
I'm not saying you can't use the marine oil, but the Penzoil air cooled, Redline and Stihl HP Ultra synthetics have a proven track record in our giant scale planes so I'll personally stick with and recommend those.

[Unmanned]

Most oils are fine if you use enough of it. The less used the better it needs to be. The less cooling you have the more you need to use.