Welcome to The FlyingGiants! - please login or click this bar to join our community...

 

Welcome to The FlyingGiants Community! We're all about fun, and inside you'll find the greatest, friendliest, and most helpful group of people around! If this is your first time visiting, please check out site, and click here to sign up! We hope to see you soon!!

Go Back   FlyingGiants > Technology > Onboard Electronics
Forgot your password? Create a new account


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-09-2013, 12:53 AM   #1
GizmoMadMax
MadMax Engineer
 
GizmoMadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 502
Default A123 vs LitiumION vs No Regulators vs Risk?

Ok, is the majority of folks flying A123 vs. all the other options?
(I am also asking the Hitec gang on the hitec A9 thread, because i need to figure out the details of the A9 Rx's and input legs to the receivers and SPC port on the A9 Rx'es)

I am trying to nail down how to setup my new plane with the Hitec A9 / optic 7 ot Optic 9 ?

I am asking around and researching, and I wanted your opinion on my shinny new AeroWorks Extra 260 QB with an 80cc ZDZ in it. http://aero-works.net/store/detail.aspx?ID=298


Allow me to tap all your expertise and ask you a few questions?
#1. The Hitec Team showed their setup last year at JoeNall, and i think they said, to go ahead and forget using my Smart-Fly, and simply use my receiver... BUT i can NOT remember their setup, it was simple and no Smart-Fly????

Here is my servo setup:
* x2 - Aileron = One servo per wing JR DS8411 (155/188oz)
* x2 - Split elevator JR DS8411 (155/188oz)
* x1 - Only one servo on Rudder Hitec HS-7955TG (250/333oz)
* x1 - Throttle Hitec HS-625MG (76/94oz)
6 Servo's Total


I am somewhat confused, so here it goes:

#1
Some say never fly A123 due to NO battery metering, it falls off all of a sudden when discharge.
But they say A123 because you can forget the added complexity of more stuff to fail, like regulators.
Save the weight of regulators and smart-flys and take the small risk and high power of A123....

#2 Some still fly NiMH (and some with low impedence NiMH), is this still good with low impedance NoBS batteries like the 2700 Series A, low weight & high power? (no very common no adays i assume)

#3 Some Lipo's but voltage drop to much across the flying time span, thus less performane as Lipo runs down, and a fire hazard... (but need regulators)

#4 Some say Lithium ION is BEST, due to voltage monitoring (but need regulators), where A123 is a guessing game until you kind of figure out time to fly to mah useage.


gee whiz, which one of the following batt/switch & regulator combos would you all recommend? Sounds like most fly A123, i guess this would be due to no regulators needed?????

Now, i must say, I have been a smart-fly user, so leaving the safe redundancy is scary.... Unless wolverine switches do the same and are just as reliable?????


I see the following setup options, what say you?

A)
A123 Fromeco Power setup
55 Iron Corps Extreme 2300 with On Board Balancer installed #1
55 Iron Corps Extreme 2300 with On Board Balancer installed #2
45 Tech-Aero Ibec to run ignition (hmmm, i supose no Y harness, but order an additional lead from wolverine for this??????????)
60 Wolverine Fault tolerant switch
215 total


B)
Optional Fromeco Wolverine Lithium ION Power setup ( NOT A123 )
60 Wolverine Fault tolerant switch
45 Sahara Voltage Regulator #1
45 Sahara Voltage Regulator #2
34 2600 ION 5cell #1
34 2600 ION 5cell #2
34 NoBS NiMH 2700 Series 'A' Size Light Weight Rx / Ignition Pack or tech-aero IBEC
252 Total


C)
Optional NoBS NiMH 2700 Series 'A' Size Light Weight Rx / Ignition Pack
80 Rx 5-Cell Batteries 6.5oz – NiMH 2700 $40 each x 2 (17 mOhm)
35 4-Cell Ignition Battery NiMH 2700mah (Not 2000) 5.2oz
0 Smart fly Power Expander Sport Plus w/ Optical Ignition Cutofff
0 Pin & Flag Failsafe & Charge Pkg
115 Total


D)
Optionally, Use my 3 year old Original NiMH Setup & Smart-flt Power Expander Sport Plus & optical cutoff & pin/flag switch ?? (this was a NON 3D machine, so worked fine with 100oz servo's)
I assume the NiMh voltage sage is the worst of the other chemistry...? Is this still reliable? (I assume only 2 or 3 or 4 flights?)
Hobbico HydriMax 2000mah 5 cell on Smartfly & 2 of these packs.
Hobbico HydriMax 2000mah 4 cell on ignition
$0 cost Total (can steal out of my other plane )


E) forget Lipo or Life for a gasser ????


Thank you in advance for the tech support
__________________

Hitec A9, UMX Extra300, H9, YardBirdRC, 3DFoamy, FoamTac, FancyFoam
80cc AeroWorks Extra 260 - Friends don't let friends fly 3DHS, 3DHS No More!

Last edited by GizmoMadMax; 04-10-2013 at 10:07 PM.
GizmoMadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 07:30 AM   #2
BarracudaHockey
Multi Platform Pilot
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Age: 48
Posts: 5,894
Send a message via AIM to BarracudaHockey
Default

Do whatever you feel comfortable with.

Anyone that poo pooh's A123's because of the voltage drop off can't do the math required to audition for "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" though.

They are pretty simple, you fly a couple flights, charge the plane, take the mah consumed and divide by the number of flights, that tells you your consumption per flight, then figure out (with a safety margin) how many flights you can get.

Ex: I have a 2500mah packs in my 50cc planes powering both the reciever and ignition. 350mah per 10 minute flight is my average consumption. I fly 4 flights and charge, my packs are consistently near the 50 percent capacity during recharge. I have plenty of safety margin and my packs are charged in 15 minutes with a Cell Pro.

No regulators, no battery fires or pack puffing (though in honesty the relatively low amp draw of a reciever/servo setup shouldn't bother a lipo compared to electric motor use), very quick charging, and consistent voltage through all 4 flights.

As for all that other nonsense, thats up to you. I run my 50cc's on a single pack with dual leads from WrongWayRC, one goes to a HD switch then to the receiver, one goes to a HD switch, to an optical kill, a voltage drop diode, then to the ignition.

On bigger stuff, 2 A123's, one straight to the reciever, one wired as above split between the receiver and igntion.
__________________
3D Bowl March 20-22 2015 at Jax RC!
Andy AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
Florida Freestyle Aerobatics Association
Fly RC Magazine
BarracudaHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 07:40 AM   #3
JoeAirPort
Obsessed
 
JoeAirPort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Age: 50
Posts: 7,342
Default

You only need a regulator for the ignition if you run HV servos. And if you run an IBEC no need for a regulator.

I wouldn't bother with anything but lithium these days. Any of them are fine but I prefer to use lipo only in foamies. But that's just me. Lots of people use them in big stuff.

I never had issues running a123 for years now. Do the math, the system works flawlessly for me.
JoeAirPort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 08:15 AM   #4
ghoffman
Bad-ass Super Contributor!
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Hampshire, USA
Posts: 5,202
Default

I run unregulated LiPo's for everything these days, with a Tech-Aero IBEC, Futaba BLS-157HV and Hitec 7955 servos, Hitec 5685HV on the throttle.
ghoffman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 08:25 AM   #5
crazyjoe
Uber Contributor
 
crazyjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: co
Age: 54
Posts: 861
Default

What these guys said. Buy the A123s from wrongway and save money. Fromcos are expensive and you don't need balance boards on the batteries use the cell pro 4 for charging. I will say I don't understand why folks discourage the use of power expanders. Smart Fly Expanders are extremely reliable they provide clean safe regulated power to the receiver and max power to the servos and you only need $19.00 switch versus 2 $30.00 plus fromco switches. Fromco does make great products as well. I use the power expander pro in all my giant scale planes over 60cc.
crazyjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:04 AM   #6
Supreme6
Push or pull?
 
Supreme6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Enumclaw, WA
Age: 33
Posts: 424
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
View Post
Do whatever you feel comfortable with.

Anyone that poo pooh's A123's because of the voltage drop off can't do the math required to audition for "Are you smarter than a 5th grader" though.

They are pretty simple, you fly a couple flights, charge the plane, take the mah consumed and divide by the number of flights, that tells you your consumption per flight, then figure out (with a safety margin) how many flights you can get.

Ex: I have a 2500mah packs in my 50cc planes powering both the reciever and ignition. 350mah per 10 minute flight is my average consumption. I fly 4 flights and charge, my packs are consistently near the 50 percent capacity during recharge. I have plenty of safety margin and my packs are charged in 15 minutes with a Cell Pro.

No regulators, no battery fires or pack puffing (though in honesty the relatively low amp draw of a reciever/servo setup shouldn't bother a lipo compared to electric motor use), very quick charging, and consistent voltage through all 4 flights.

As for all that other nonsense, thats up to you. I run my 50cc's on a single pack with dual leads from WrongWayRC, one goes to a HD switch then to the receiver, one goes to a HD switch, to an optical kill, a voltage drop diode, then to the ignition.

On bigger stuff, 2 A123's, one straight to the reciever, one wired as above split between the receiver and igntion.
What he said! I was new and went from NiMH in my first gasser to A123's now and they are very simple. Charge in the plane and no regs to mess with. Charging at the field is very fast too.
Supreme6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:11 AM   #7
grind2tenths
Team NFFF's Founding Member
 
grind2tenths's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Walnut Cove NC
Age: 52
Posts: 164
Default

123's for me ! I'm running 8 8611A's in a H9 260 flew it 4 times at 11 to 12 minutes each flight and only used around 800 ma out of each pack. These are the flat Hyperions 2100 ma packs. Only used about 300 ma out of the ignition pack. Havaing about the same kind of luck out of my A123's in a QQ Python. Just running a bat share in case a pack decides to take a dump.
grind2tenths is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:29 AM   #8
GizmoMadMax
MadMax Engineer
 
GizmoMadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 502
Default

Thanks for the replies, keep them coming, good info
GizmoMadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:30 AM   #9
futile flight
stick banger
 
futile flight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,553
Default

A123's charger Faster then Lion's for sure
futile flight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:37 AM   #10
GizmoMadMax
MadMax Engineer
 
GizmoMadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 502
Default

So tell me, my current smart fly states it uses NIMH , but I suspect I can run dual a123's on it? Has anyone tried this?
The reason I ask, because I am an engineering type, and the redundancy and safety of a smart fly makes me feel safer.
Because my thought process is, if there is a battery issue, short, open, etc, this smart fly will control it, and I suppose keep the receiver running and not lose the whole system and still land safely?
I am I thinking this through properly?

I suppose any battery could kill a Rx, so in my mind a smart fly or batt share makes sense, or am I over engineering it and this scenario is one in a million?
GizmoMadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:52 AM   #11
BarracudaHockey
Multi Platform Pilot
 
BarracudaHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Jacksonville Florida
Age: 48
Posts: 5,894
Send a message via AIM to BarracudaHockey
Default

Smart flys are cool, they have their place, but for the setup you specified? Overkill.

Whatever makes you comfortable though, I personally would say you're over thinking it.

If you had a couple servos per surface that would be a different matter. You're basically showing a 50cc setup and IMO that doesn't need all that.
__________________
3D Bowl March 20-22 2015 at Jax RC!
Andy AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
Florida Freestyle Aerobatics Association
Fly RC Magazine
BarracudaHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 10:56 AM   #12
GizmoMadMax
MadMax Engineer
 
GizmoMadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 502
Default

So to keep it simple, should I go with a smartfly bat share and a simple switch like the smart fly pin and flag switch, with 2 a123 batteries?

also the tech-aero ibec for ignition, somehow connect to the batshare output, maybe with a Y harness or solder in?
GizmoMadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 01:07 PM   #13
wfield0455
Bad-ass Super Contributor!
 
wfield0455's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Holliston, MA
Posts: 1,515
Default

Quote: Originally Posted by GizmoMadMax
View Post
So to keep it simple, should I go with a smartfly bat share and a simple switch like the smart fly pin and flag switch, with 2 a123 batteries?

also the tech-aero ibec for ignition, somehow connect to the batshare output, maybe with a Y harness or solder in?
You can simply run each battery into a good reliable switch and plug them right into the receiver. You really don't need any more than that, still, if you really want a battery share, the Fromeco wolverine (I think) is 2, "fail on" switches and battery share circuit in a single package and costs about the same as a pair of JR heavy duty switches. I've used those in a number of planes and they've worked very well. As for the tech-aero IBEC, that simply plugs right into a receiver channel and acts as a regulated ignition power source and ignition kill. No separate battery connection is needed.
__________________
Wayne
wfield0455 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 09:27 PM   #14
GizmoMadMax
MadMax Engineer
 
GizmoMadMax's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 502
Default

Thanks for the input on this thread and a few other threads.

After talking with Bob at Smart-fly, and me being a analytical & engineering type, and then having already invested in my smart fly a couple years ago, i was sold on Bob's view, regarding redundancy, why spend $4k on an aircraft, and risk having no redundancy, or at least give as much redundancy as possible,

Sooooooo, beings i already had a NiMH Smart-Fly (which can also run the A123 in a NiMH Smart-fly), why NOT go A123 and either fly with the smart fly, and if i decide to save the weight, heck, pull the smart-fly out later, so the A123 gives me two options :-)

Now on the iBEC to ignition, hmmm, as Bob said, why risk a $4k plane again on an IBEC, just use a NiMH as i have been doing the past 3 years...

Soooooo, until i feel better about minimal & slim gear and fly, i will minimize some risks for now and feel safer for the moment, then maybe down the road strip the smart-fly & go straight Batts to the Rx & IBEC and risk it all, but then again, nahhhhhhhh :-/
__________________

Hitec A9, UMX Extra300, H9, YardBirdRC, 3DFoamy, FoamTac, FancyFoam
80cc AeroWorks Extra 260 - Friends don't let friends fly 3DHS, 3DHS No More!
GizmoMadMax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-10-2013, 09:50 PM   #15
wylieruneyjr
RUTNBUC
 
wylieruneyjr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: McClellanville South Carolina
Age: 51
Posts: 2,547
Default

Good for you. Bob gave you excellant advice, and you now have a plan.
RutnBuc
__________________
Hear me Now, Believe me Later !
wylieruneyjr is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:42 AM.

All Flyinggiants.com content copyright 2006-2014 by RCGroups.com, LLC except where otherwise indicated. The Flyinggiants.com logo is a trademark of RCGroups.com, LLC.
Please report any misuse of our trademarks or copyright violations using the contact form.
RCGroups Network :: RCGroups :: Crackroll :: RC Cars

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.