FREESTYLE -VS- 3D ???

[Biff]

Been watching threads and listening to guys in the pits/spectator area and thought a thread about this was in order. There seems to be two very distinct camps here. There are those who really dig a well choreographed flight where the pilot flies to the music, does some low stuff, uses the whole box/flight envelope and presents a routine that adheres to what the rules ask for. Then there are those who like down and dirty put the plane in the grass/sand/dirt and REALLY lays it out there!

The impression is that both camps think the other is screwing up. The 3D monsters will tell you right quick that if you ain't flying it on the edge, you're a sissy! The other camp is quick to point out that the routine needs to be flown to music and use the entire flight envelope as that's what the rules are asking for.

What I hear over and over is that the old fuddy duddies who made up the rules for free style in the bigger contests should move over and let the new generation ROCK OUT!! "The crowd wants to see dirt flying, wing tip sanding and the motor HOWLING!!! LET THEM FLY HARD AND GET REWARDED!!!"

The other camp says "the rules are very specific about what the judges need to see. I fly a very regimented routine,not just bang the sticks in the corners. I should get high marks as I'm giving the judges EXACTLY what I'm being asked to do. I do get low, but how many torque rolls can you see before it's just another torque roll? Wow, another harrier to torque roll transition. Haven't see that since last Saturday at my home club by every kid with a profile, whoopy"


The other thing to consider is scoring. How do you decide who flew the lowest? Is there a quantifiable way to score badass? If you go with crowd response only, a pilot could bring 50 friends in with bull horns and drums and have a pretty profound affect on noise level. How can you fairly judge something as subjective as badass fight?


Then you have to take into consideration safety. There is a huge obligation of safety to all of the folks who pay to see big contests. One accident at a big meet isn't going to bode well for our hobby. Not to mention liability issues. If a plane touches the ground, who can tell from that far away if there is structural/mechanical damage? Stripped out servos (yes multiple servos on a surface do strip) can potentially be a huge issue. I fully understand these guys are pros and would never intentionally put folks in danger, but there are things that simply can't be helped. I've seen it over and over that a pilot will intentionally put his bird in rather than risk anyone's safety. Think of it from the event staff's stand point. It's a HUGE responsibility!


I've also heard that the pilots at the TOC really pushed harder than pilots do today at contests. My thought after watching the old vids (dang I miss that contest!) is that they didn't push as hard as they are today, it was just brand new stuff back then! Not to date myself, but when Hanno did a rolling circle (back when they flew pattern birds at the TOC!) there was SHOCK and disbelief! The first torque roll, wall, parachute, harrier etc was ground breaking flight! But it really wasn't lower than what's happening today.


I see both sides of the argument and think both are valid. Sure, spectators want to see dirt flying and foam all over the runway. Who doesn't go nuts when a pilot turns an AW SHOOT into an ATTA BOY in the last second?? I love that stuff! But there has to be a clearly defined (and fair!) way of scoring. I fully appreciate and understand all the time, effort and arguments over the system we have for scoring. I can tell you for sure, if you take the top pilots in the world into a pilots meeting and say "okay boys, we wanna see badass, but we can't give you a clear understanding of what badass is" you are going to be in for a full on brawl!!! I like the choreography as well.


So what are your thoughts? To have planes and pilots pushed to the limits, how are you going to score it fairly and objectively? How do you handle a plane touching the ground and who is going to take responsibility for making that go/no go call on the flight line? For those who might suggest using NASCAR as a model to prevent litigation (enter at your own risk, we're not liable for nothin') remeber they have safety barriers. We don't. It's the responsability of those putting on the contests to prevent (as much as possible) the accident, not have cya methodology to stand on after someone gets hurt.

If you dig the rules as they are, how do you respond to those who say it wasn't low enough or badass enough? If you feel free style was never meant to be 4 minutes of near crash to near crash, let's hear your side. "I'm here to win a contest. You don't get as many points for flying low as you do for flying well, how can I be messing up? Why would I risk torque rolling or hovering 1 inch off the ground when I get just as many points for doing it 3 feet or higher? Nobody is out there with a tape measure!! Bottom line is I'd rather have a trophy and a check than pats on the back in the pits for ALMOST pulling a knuckle biter off ." All valid points?

All I can say is I sure enjoyed watching both styles of flying this year. Either way you pull for you just gotta stand up and applaud all the skills, effort and BALLS it took this year in the big contests. BRAVO!!!!

I also think to a great extent the way a pilot flies a freestyle boils down to his personal style. Watch full scale airshow pilots and it's the same way. There's the badass full on giddy up go and there's the pilots who prefer a smooth graceful flight with some hoo-haws for good measure. For me, it's really cool watching both styles. Makes for a far more interesting freestlye. At Tuscon, it looked like both styles were scored well!




PLEASE respect other's feelings here guys. There isn't a right or wrong it's just personal taste.

[Mark Davis]

What, you trying to start a war Biff???

One thing for sure, they should not zero a round for touching the ground... If anything, they should add points... Unless you put a smoking hole in the ground...

[Wayne]

Great thread!

I am in the camp of, Fly to the criteria.
Low is cool and gets the crowd going but, everyone can fly low. (Let me clarify that a little more.)
I have noticed that ANY low flying gets the crowd going. In Tucson last month anything that was low to the ground got a huge reaction. It could have been something as simple as a low upright fly by
(O of 8) or something that required much more skill like a low rolling harrier. It all got the same reaction from the crowd. The masses in Tucson didnt know the difference in skill level it takes to do either. (We do of course as modellers.)
Crowd appeal in my opinion shouldnt be a factor.

There has been a ton of talk about a few guys who flew Freestyle in the Shootout.
I am amazed that there hasnt been more talk or comments on Jason Noll's routine.
Maybe that because there wasnt anything "Low" in it but go back and watch it and i'd be surprised if anyone could tell me that someone flew to the criteria better than he did in Tucson.
There isnt a single spot in the 4 mins where that plane isnt dancing to the beat of the music.
Another person who flies Freestyle like that is John Glezellis. FRIKIN AMAZING!

Freestyle is about Flying to Music and other criteria falls in behind that I think.


Low is cool but I'd rather see a plane in synch with music for 4 minutes that watch a plane LOW to the ground with music playing in the background.

Just my .02

[Tailchaser]

That's a tough one Biff, another consideration would be cost, you have some pilots who can afford to maybe put one in doing the down and dirty style flying, and you have the pilots who would be possible be done for the year or longer just trying to be competive.................and that IMO is the majority.
I too like to see both styles of flying, but my own personal preference is for the grace and smooth controlled flight you see in some of todays pilots.
You IMO have some pilots who take there interpretation of their music and and literally make their plane dance with the music, then you have the guys who can't chew gum and fly at the same time, and I'm talking about over half of the field, so it is no easy task.........Kyle just makes it look easy.
If I had to use a pilot to use as an example...........you don't need to go much further than this years top three.
I don't want to see a pilots season cut short because of trying to compete and dumping his bird just to wow the crowd....................their not the ones who are going to replace a high dollar plane for him.

Thanks, for the topic Biff.......Chuck

After reading your post Wayne I could'nt agree more..well put.

[Temptation]

This is kind of a difficult question to answer, simply beceause is it personal preference.

I for one, like the smooth graceful flight, flown to the rules that are in place today. I strongly believe that the aircraft should not be allowed to touch the ground under any circumstances during the flight, except for landing of course. Safety is very important, and the integrity of the model is unknown after a ground touch until it is landed and inspected.

I am more impressed by a pilot that shows complete control of his aircraft, and not just slamming the sticks in the corners. As a spectator you can tell. I enjoy a well thought out routine.

I like the low down crazy stuff just as much as the next guy, but as others have said, it should not score better than the next guy. There just is no way to be certain of a score in a situation like that.

I beleive the rules are the way they are today, because safety needs to be considered for one, and for two, how do you judge height, and wow factor between pilots?

This is going to be an interesting thread for sure.

Mike Darr

[SleepyC]

Personally I like the controlled freestyle flights. Low or not.
The flights that have a flow and look like they are being excuted 100% o the time.

Why? Because 90% of the guys I know CAN'T DO IT.

Not saying that the top pilots can't do some flat out Balls hanging 3D stuff that my friends and I can't even begin to do. But for the most part making all the different maneuvers flow together and in time with the music, with flawless excution takes a LOT of practice, I think more so than straight up crazy 3D stuff..

But I do like to see the hardcore 3D maneuvers incorperated into the flow of the routine.

I see 14 year old kids that all they do is hover and TR, and do rolling harriers all over the place, but they still can't FLY.

Personally I think the crazy demo 3D almost crash stuff would be a great 1/2 time show... like the stunt show at the races... people would go nuts!

Just an opinion.

[jongurley]

The controlled freestyle flights are just plain boring,, period,, I realize how much time and practice go into the routines,, but who really cares,, QueQue used to be one of the most nastiest 3d guys around,, now since he is having to fly the "criteria" he looks like he has taken a Sportsman sequence and put it to music, along with other guys,,,,



here are my quotes from the KYLE VS. QUEQUE thread were this topic got brought up,,

"
That is still not right, I guess they say no touching for safety am I correct,, I think Freestyle should have the cryteria taken away and let the judges judge the freestyle according to the "WOW FACTOR",, if someone touches then ole well,, if someone crashes ole well, put on a show for the FANS<<<<< not flying a IMAC sequence to music,,, just my two cents just like kyle touching in the rolling harrier>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"
"Everyone keeps harping on how competitive these guys are and how they want to win etc,etc,,, then there is a comment on how they need to SAVE there airplane,, come on, these are the best pilots in the world,, did it look like Kyle(just using him for example)said I don't want to risk my plane I need to save it for the next sequence round,,,,,,,,,,,,,,no he said I want to win and put on a show for the crowd and by god he did,,, along with Leseburg trying to pull off that Suicidal Split S Rolling Dive,, he put it in but he went for it all, ,that gains my respect and the fans,, I realize some people try to explain this topic in good words but come on guys impress the fans,, if it keeps on like it is going they will have to call it The Personal Sequence Round , instead of Freestyle Round, ,,, I used to know a pilot that is about my age and used to TURN IT OUT, and he was one of the best but he has since fallen to the musical sequence round syndrom, I watched some videos of him at the XFC and they were rather boring,, do you guys see my point,,,"

[toprudder]

My vote: Routines flown to the criteria. If flown to music, the flying should be in-sync, not just random flying with AC-DC playing in the background.

I attended the Don Lowe Masters this year. Awesome freestyles. IMHO, if flying to the music was the only criteria, Bernd Beshorner would have won. It was like an aerial ballet. I think he simply did not put enough 3D stuff in. And when I say 3D, I don't mean tail-touching, throw it at the ground and pull out at the last second kind of flying.

Just my 2CW.

[Jaybird]

I know it takes mucho skills to fly a perfect freestyle to music. BUT, give me someone dragging the counterbalances off !! Low and Nasty, like Kyles old funtana vids.

[Wayne]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Jaybird
	I know it takes mucho skills to fly a perfect freestyle to music. BUT, give me someone dragging the counterbalances off !! Low and Nasty, like Kyles old funtana vids.

How do you accurately judge that?

[SleepyC]

	Quote:
	BUT, give me someone dragging the counterbalances off !! Low and Nasty, like Kyles old funtana vids.

Yea but with the mention of Mr. Kyle.. he is still very much in the criteria.
So he kind of crossed the boarder, cause he's flying whats required, and still killin it.

To me that is SICK... but a bunch of un-connected TR's and hovers is boring....

[toprudder]

JonGurley,

You make an excellent point! Whether we are trying to determine the best flyer (scored by judges) or impress the "fans" (WOW factor) I think is the big part of the issue here. I think they both have their places.

Trying to get the flight scored by judges only considering the "WOW" factor is completely subjective. I think that most of the large events try to have established judging criteria, known in advance by the contestants that may be traveling from other countries, is only fair.

If, however, you have flying demos put on by various pilots and then have a "crowd favorite" award at the end, voted on by the spectators, is more inline with your thinking. Anyone that chooses to participate in that flying will know in advance that the scoring is completely subjective.

Things that impress me, since I am a flyer, may not impress the general public. And things that impress the general public may not impress me. For instance, I am not impressed AT ALL by smoke. Especially when you torque roll on the deck and the wind blows it in my face.

[Jaybird]

	Quote: Originally Posted by Wayne
	How do you accurately judge that?

Just saying thats what I would rather see. Lots more fun to watch

Besides, it is called FREESTYLE, not much about it is free if you have to follow a criteria.
just my opinion

[jongurley]

"How do you judge it",,,, who ever makes you smile and jump the most,,,,, It is a freestyle,, which in my terms should be a round to do what YOU the pilot want to do, to get bonus points,,, I actually left the Don Lowe masters a day early because the freestyles were stale, I fly IMAC and I enjoy it, and I enjoyed watching some of the sequences but the freestyle is what brings the crowd,,,there is no more ChipHyde walking around the biplane like in the 2002TOC,, or Leseburg rolling the whole flight in the 2004 JRchallenge,,, that was what it was all about,,, have music and go along with it, have fun,,, but penalizing someone who touches the tail while doing a rolling harrier by zeroing their score,, that is pathetic,,,,

[YNOT]

oops double

yall know how i get excited