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Old 08-09-2018, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by flyin4fun View Post
Tariffs are on goods NOT services.....secondly the US is only imposing tariffs on Canadian aluminum (10%) and steel (25%).....Canada has imposed tariffs on 228 items, including a 270% tariff on US dairy items.
True. For the same amount of overall tariffs imposed on Canadian steel and aluminium. That’s what a trade war is. You impose tarifs on goods that hurt a country in a sector and you get hit back with the same amount of tariffs on goods that hurt you back.

Look at what Chineese are targetting in retaliation for US tariffs.
Your agricultural products. Perishable products that cannot be stocked forever. US and Canada are big exporter of pork and pork products to China.

If US cannot export to China because of extra cost imposed by tarifs in China, who win ? What US farmers do with their livestock ? Even frozen meat cannot remain frozen too long. Nothing of this is good.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Helo1 View Post
True. For the same amount of overall tariffs imposed on Canada. Thatís what a trade war is. You impose tarifs on goods that hurt a country in a sector and you get hit back with the same amount of tariffs on goods that hurt you back.
Exactly.....and what this accomplishes as an end result is the 2 sides get together and resolve their trade agreement differences.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Helo1 View Post
You are wrong. US is in surplus with Canada on both- goods and services.
I'm curious how you come to that conclusion? The government data (https://ustr.gov/countries-regions/americas/canada) specifically says otherwise.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Helo1 View Post
True. For the same amount of overall tariffs imposed on Canadian steel and aluminium. That’s what a trade war is. You impose tarifs on goods that hurt a country in a sector and you get hit back with the same amount of tariffs on goods that hurt you back.

Look at what Chineese are targetting in retaliation for US tariffs.
Your agricultural products. Perishable products that cannot be stocked forever. US and Canada are big exporter of pork and pork products to China.
If US cannot export to China because of extra cost imposed by tarifs in China, who win ? What US farmers do with their livestock ? Even frozen meat cannot remain frozen too long. Nothing of this is good.
BUT,,,,the Chinese need to eat....we can survive with a few less TV's
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:48 AM
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Doug said it - a trade war does nothing if it is not protecting something we already produce. There aren't any magical companies that are all of the sudden going to start opening manufacturing in the US because of a 25% tariff. If you think that will happen now or in the near future after some magical negotiations, you aren't thinking critically or looking at the world realistically.



There is one thing America has always done better than everyone else - produce food. We do it so well, we were able to break into the Chinese market, and sell them commodities cheaper than they could make them. Due to this new trade war, the Chinese are investing heavily in their own agricultural infrastructure. Additionally, we are no longer a reliable trade partner - so they are taking their business to other countries - not because they want to, but because they have to - they have to eat. In the short term, they are creating new incentives for other countries and investing in other countries infrastructure to provide a stable source of ag products - which they need to survive.

So, the farmers in our country are getting a 12 Billion dollar welfare check in October. It's a one time payment to cover what they have already lost and buy the rural vote in November (maybe). Note that - they have already lost 12 Billion dollars. If any of you keyboard politicians think that 12 Billion dollars is going to cover the long term loss of market share - you are sadly mistaken. This little fiasco is going to be a gift that keeps on giving for a great while. So buckle up buttercup, enjoy the short term gains - the bills will come due.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:16 AM
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I see it's really good to yell at your biggest lender, also it's really good to make enemy with 1.5 billion of customers.

Major foreign holders of U.S. treasury securities, as of March 2018 (in billion U.S. dollars)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...treasury-debt/

According to the Federal Reserve and U.S. Department of the Treasury, foreign countries held a total of 6.29 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. treasury securities as of March 2017. Of the total 6.29 trillion held by foreign countries, Mainland China and Japan held the greatest portions. China held 1.19 trillion U.S. dollars in U.S. securities. Japan held 1.04 trillion U.S. dollars worth
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Old 08-09-2018, 05:27 PM
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Sadly the consumer will have to eat it so call it what it is... TAX
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by flyin4fun View Post
Either way makes no difference.....as the US has decided to impose tariffs on imported steel and aluminum.......trade deficit or no trade deficit.......BUT, because of this ...Canada has decided to impose tariffs on 227 items imported from the US.
Fair is fair. Did you expect them to just bend over and apply lube?
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:40 AM
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Seems an incentive program to aid & finance manufacturing of goods in the USA to compete with imports would have been a smarter solution. Can't afford it? Pull some other crazy foreign funding... Not like we couldn't use the help right here. Subsidize American manufacturers.
Taxing goods we all use because they are not made in the US feels more like a kick in the teeth than a useful solution.
At least we are still free to say so.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:36 PM
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Do you really think the tarrifs are only because we feel we need to tax goods not made in the US. These other countries have been adding Tarrifs on our goods when we weren't on theirs....now it's time to turn their game on them and it might sting a bit but if you will hold your horses for 5 minutes you might see it turn in our favor and then some !
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:43 PM
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When you say it might sting a bit, are you referring to the loss of corporate revenues, decrease in stock price and bond ratings, the rollback of payrolls, the increase in unemployment, mortgage defaults...or is the real answer to claim to create tariffs and then for purely political reasons promise huge bailouts for affected industries? if Obama did this you guys would be apoplectic - but because it comes from Trump it is somehow good economic policy? DOW was down 200 pts today.

I guess it's okay as long as it doesn't hit your pocket? Is that what you mean?

Orange head was critical during the election of the so called economic recovery because he felt it was stimulated by unusually low prime rates dictated by the Fed Res. But once in office, he was quick to criticize the same when they voted to increase the prime, which they will likely to do again.
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:58 PM
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Increase in unemployment....stock market down 200 pts. If you'd quit watching CNN you'd know unemployment is getting lower by the minute and the stock market is still 5000 higher than it was 2 years ago. I love seeing you libs getting your panties in a wad before theirs even a reason.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ponyboy082662 View Post
Increase in unemployment....stock market down 200 pts. If you'd quit watching CNN you'd know unemployment is getting lower by the minute and the stock market is still 5000 higher than it was 2 years ago. I love seeing you libs getting your panties in a wad before theirs even a reason.
Lets be careful not to go name calling so we can keep this thread open, please.
Likely you would be a bit embarrassed that my voting history might be more hawkish than your's.
I thought how right was I that manufacturing subsidies would be more effective than tax. Google did not disappoint. The facts show China is the worlds leading exported because their govt. did exactly what I said our govt. should be doing.... but heck, I'm just another dumb guy.

Read this factual report from the Harvard business report if you have a real interest in what is happening.
https://hbr.org/2013/04/how-chinese-subsidies-changed
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:36 PM
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the DOW responded positively to the reduction in corp taxes, as one would expect that it would. But the last few months with imposition of tariffs have been a bit of roller coaster, and that creates uncertainty in the market. Go ahead and sling the insults and pejorative labels if it makes you feel better. We don't have to agree, but the goal is always to have an intelligent debate and that goal goes away pretty quickly when the first assumption is that the opposition is an idiot simply because he or she shares a differing view.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ponyboy082662 View Post
Increase in unemployment....stock market down 200 pts. If you'd quit watching CNN you'd know unemployment is getting lower by the minute and the stock market is still 5000 higher than it was 2 years ago. I love seeing you libs getting your panties in a wad before theirs even a reason.



You point out a very big problem in America today. The opposition to the tariffs is not binary. This isn't a Liberal vs. Conservative issue. This is a livelihood issue. We need to move away from the binary outcomes - ie. I win you lose, and seriously consider policy and make informed decision based on the likely outcome of the policy - not that's liberal, or that's conservative - we should be thinking - that is good, or that is bad, and defend based on facts.



If you were a soybean farmer, you wouldn't be so glib, and you might actually think through this issue critically - and see there is no way anyone walks away from this better off. Historically, no one wins a trade war, and all the economic experts agree, this is not going to end well. If there was a chance of that happening, the better part of the Republican congress would get behind this nonsense - but they aren't.



A real Republican does not believe in policy that will require the government to bail out an industry with our tax dollars. Why is this OK now?
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