Originally Posted by Mithrandir

Or ripples in the skin or a canopy that opens up!!

This part got me more than just about anything. Ok...ripples in the skin, maybe you don't notice that in a plane buzzing past at 400 knots...heck, they were kinda hard for me to see on the still frame.

But the canopy??? I can not conceive of how the pilot could have failed to notice that...and SAID SOMETHING.

"Hey, uh, guys? yeah, at like 380 kt, the canopy starts trying to fly off the airplane. Maybe you could take a look see?"

Ok, sure..maybe the crew would have diagnosed the issue, maybe not..no way of knowing...but for there to be no indication that it ever got brought up???

Like you said...airplanes will talk to you...you just have to listen.

Just watched the whole 2hrs. The nylocs may been the direct cause of the accident but its its actually the poor engineering of the modifications that's the root causal.

Essentially the fuselage was twisting under assymetric load induced by the only one functioning trim tab. Flutter breaks this trim tab the fuselage then releases tension and the plane responds which the pilot responds to correct but by then he's a passenger.

Really enlightening. Its worth watching the whole thing and listening to the questions and answers.

I watched the whole video. The analysis of the events of the crash were absolutely fantastic. Very solid inspection and conclusions were pretty much spot on with what I'd said from my armchair position. Some of the questions after the forensics were pretty stupid, especially people asking what Jimmy might have been thinking with respect to some of the maintenance, as if they have any way to know what someone was thinking. Stupid posturing for the cameras.

There's a lot of people who've commented to me the Reno paddock is very much a Saturday Night Drag Racer mentality. There's a ton of modify today, fly tomorrow going on. There's still the question of why Jimmy lied about his age on his entry forms in 2010 and 2011. He was 74, but listed his age as 59 both years.

The lack of competency within his crew is incredible. I don't understand how these mods and such weren't required to be signed off my a licensed A&P mechanic, unless of course Jimmy was doing that himself. There's no way a real A&P would ever sign off on re-using locknuts like that. It's entirely possible the canopy never had an issue until that flight. The airplane was going 35 kts faster than it ever had before, which puts it into a whole new regime of stress.

Originally Posted by TimBle

Just watched the whole 2hrs. The nylocs may been the direct cause of the accident but its its actually the poor engineering of the modifications that's the root causal.

Essentially the fuselage was twisting under assymetric load induced by the only one functioning trim tab. Flutter breaks this trim tab the fuselage then releases tension and the plane responds which the pilot responds to correct but by then he's a passenger.

Really enlightening. Its worth watching the whole thing and listening to the questions and answers.

Actually, while the asymmetric loads caused the fuselage twisting, the failure of the trim tab system caused the incredible over-g situation, and that was the end of that. The trim system was inadequate as designed for those kinds of speeds, and when modified, was even more lacking. Above 400 KIAS, apparently the trim system on a stock P-51D can't even hold the pitch trim, and forward pressure is required on the stick to maintain level flight.

While the G-forces were very high, it's actually the onset rate that sealed Jimmy's fate. When the trim system failed, the onset rate that occurred would have put him into G-LOC with 3 or 4 Gs, let alone 17. The G loads came so quickly he had no chance to respond. I had this demonstrated to me in a T-37 Tweety Bird years ago, when a USAF instructor pilot put me into G-LOC at 3.5G, because he could trigger such a high onset rate. And this was at a time when I was regularly pulling 8 to 9+ in the SU-29.

Given that the NTSB cited several failures of the crew and pilot/ownership, the gazillion dollar lawsuits are sure to follow for those killed and injured.

Wonder what kind of insurance the team and association has to deal with such situations.
Might be the death of the sport. It can easily be guessed that there will be bankruptcies being filed to keep from having to pay millions in claims for wrongfull/negligent death suits.

the mentality has to change. Its also pretty important for Rc Pilots to recognise that even their model plane can cause a lot of damage and even kill.

It won't be the death of the sport. Not even close. Reno had a GREAT year this year. It could be a big problem for Jimmy's family though.

Originally Posted by Shaker

Actually, while the asymmetric loads caused the fuselage twisting, the failure of the trim tab system caused the incredible over-g situation, and that was the end of that. The trim system was inadequate as designed for those kinds of speeds, and when modified, was even more lacking. Above 400 KIAS, apparently the trim system on a stock P-51D can't even hold the pitch trim, and forward pressure is required on the stick to maintain level flight.

While the G-forces were very high, it's actually the onset rate that sealed Jimmy's fate. When the trim system failed, the onset rate that occurred would have put him into G-LOC with 3 or 4 Gs, let alone 17. The G loads came so quickly he had no chance to respond. I had this demonstrated to me in a T-37 Tweety Bird years ago, when a USAF instructor pilot put me into G-LOC at 3.5G, because he could trigger such a high onset rate. And this was at a time when I was regularly pulling 8 to 9+ in the SU-29.

yes I agree.

Originally Posted by Shaker

It won't be the death of the sport. Not even close. Reno had a GREAT year this year. It could be a big problem for Jimmy's family though.

I bet they did have a great year.

consider the situation from a lawyers perspective drawing upon decades of case law...

A google search shows many reports regarding lawsuits over this, and now with the NTSB releasing its findings, more will pile on and the size of the suits will only get bigger.

Consider this from one of them

"The attorney said he wanted to hold "two groups of wrongdoers" accountable: "Those who pushed the limits of physics on the plane, being risk takers and reckless without regard for the people who might be watching them, and those who promoted and profited from hosting the show."

Regarding his family...I do believe he and his team were covered under a policy from Air Capital Insurance..to some extent. Having said that, I bet dollars to doughnuts, they look for a way out of having to pay a major claim.

who knows.
sad all around for everyone around and to those of us who like to watch the races.

Here's a link to the PDF file of the entire written report. Also contains some detailed photos.

http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/AAB1201.pdf

Earle

We'll, I'll keep my fingers crossed that the lawyers don't kill the Reno races, but at least we don't have to worry about the NTSB doing it. They simply (from what I've gathered so far) made several recommendations about inspections and course layout, all of which have been implemented already. I was very pleased to see that the races occurred at all this year. And of course happy that there were no accidents.

NTSB investigates and advises. FAA legislates...

Have you guys seen "The World's Fastest Indian"? This kind of sounds like that movie but with an airplane.

Originally Posted by gareth.ky

Have you guys seen "The World's Fastest Indian"? This kind of sounds like that movie but with an airplane.

+1. epic movie

it is time to put all these 70 year old planes in a museum and start building ground-up racing planes with todays tools and technology....