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Old 08-30-2007, 08:24 PM
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Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Hey folks, on the Capi thread, Chris brought up the excellent idea of having a semi-formal judging seminar at the Delaware Water Gap contest on Friday evening.

There are a lot of new folks in Imac this year (YEAH!!!) and others that would like to learn more about judging. At the Capi, Dave pointed out how important it is that everyone should try to help out with judging. Specially when there is a high turnout in any one class such as Basic at the Capi. The more qualified judges the better.

If you are interested, please post here so we have an idea of how to proceed. (Time needed, copies etc)

Even if you are a qualified judge, it might not be a bad idea to listen in or even help out with some insight.

I'm in for learning more as well as helping out in any way. I can try to organize it, bring props, what ever.

Thanks........Mark
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:38 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Count me in as a student on this one
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:41 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

OO! ME ME ME MEEE MEEEEE!!

I def. wanna get some judge edjemekation!

Don't make it TOO early friday, cuz I will have school, and won't be able to leave for Del Gap till around 3:30.
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:49 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

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edjemekation!
LOL.....Yep, school's important. Pay particular attention in spelling class!
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Old 08-30-2007, 08:56 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Sorry, i knew i messed something up!

something THAT important needs to be capitalized. "Edjemekation"
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:04 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

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Old 08-30-2007, 09:15 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

If I can get there in time, I would be more than happy to help out. Not sure with work though depending on the time.
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:35 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

I am in.

Galip
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Old 08-31-2007, 07:43 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

If I can make it friday, I'll take all the downgrading hints you can give! I noticed when I judge, I give many 7s and 8s.. but when I look at an advanced or unlimited judge, I see an average of 6s.. wheres that point coming from?!?
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Old 08-31-2007, 08:42 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

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when I look at an advanced or unlimited judge, I see an average of 6s.. wheres that point coming from?!?
Did you see this average from the Capi Unlimited last week or from other contests? I judged them a round and they were well above an average of 6's. I didn't look at the previous rounds as I always fold those under so as not to be influenced by previous scores. Those guys were all good. It was a pleasure watching/judging them.

As far as you're giving 7 & 8's, that can be normal for some judges and show up in all the classes. As the pilots get better and move up, they have more stuff in a manuever in which a judge can see down grades. For instance Int and above can have two "roll" maneuvers on a single line segment, thus two chances for over/under rotation and point deductions that go with them.
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Old 08-31-2007, 09:27 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

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If I can make it friday, I'll take all the downgrading hints you can give! I noticed when I judge, I give many 7s and 8s.. but when I look at an advanced or unlimited judge, I see an average of 6s.. wheres that point coming from?!?
Actually I was comparing raw scores last night from when you judged me (first round)versus when OnTheEdge (4th round) and you guys were very close on some maneuvers. Without them in my hand right now I cannot be completely sure, but I seem to remember the higher "K" ones is where it was the closest, which is good, at least to me. Now normally I would not take this into account since it was 2 different rounds and on a totally different day, but I was pretty consistent this weekend and the raw scores show that.

But I have certainly seen where there is a wide difference in scores between two judges judging at the same time and not just at CAPI. I was asked the reason for this by a couple of the new basic pilots that I was calling for on Sunday that had been reviewing their raw scores and the best explanation I could give them was certain judges see certain things as well as miss certain things and the "K" factor is there to try to eliminate the difference in judges. That is how it was explained to me some months ago but it never really made sense and still does not.

When I do judge I try to be consistent and fair but I want to know more as I feel I'm not being the best judge I can be so that is why I'm all over attending this if it happens. I tried to attend some judging seminars before this season started but family things at the time kept me from attending since all of them were far enough away to warrant an overnight stay and I could not be away overnight at the time.

Myself and most likely whaturi are going to work with some of the guys in Delaware that I called for at CAPI, this coming Sunday, that do not frequent this forum, that are planning to attend DE-WG, and I'll ask them if they are interested in coming to this seminar. I have a feeling they both will want to.
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Old 08-31-2007, 10:37 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

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and the "K" factor is there to try to eliminate the difference in judges. That is how it was explained to me some months ago but it never really made sense and still does not.
The K factor is not there to eliminate judging differences but rather a way to guage the difficulty of the maneuver itself. (i.e. a hammer head with nothing up or down is not as hard as a hammerhead with a four point roll on the way up, therefore the higher K factor on the latter.)

You will see differences in judging, specially when using contestant judging. It's just a fact of Imac/ pattern etc. We all have seen times where two judges watching the same sequence rate them very differently. However, this is rare. If you look at your scores, you'll probably see that a large majority of the scores are within 1 - 1.5 points of each other.



Judging seminars help out very much though.
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:17 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

That's why the explanation I had for the "K" factor made no sense to me. I knew it was for difficulty of the maneuver but at the time I could not see how it involved difference in judging so I "blew it off" at the time and totally forgot about it until now.

And as you mentioned, that is exactly why I hope this idea for DE-WG pans out. I'd really like to know more about how to judge which has the added benefit of making my own sequences even better because I'll have a better idea of what is supposed to be happening. I've read all the Aresti stuff and judging stuff and it all helped a great deal, but I'm the type that seeing examples in person are way better for me.

For me this year, all the judges I have talked with have been extremely helpful in giving out tips and it finally showed at CAPI
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Old 08-31-2007, 11:50 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

I think Bill is referring to normalization. Normalization is the process where the flyer with the best raw score is given 1000pts for that round and the rest are given a % of that score. Here's a simple explanation:

This year's Basic sequence has a K factor of 138pts. If the top scoring flyer gets all 10's then his raw score for that flight is 1380 (138 X 10). If another flyer gets all 9's then his raw score is 1242 (138 X 9).

Top scoring flyer for that round earns 1000 normalized points. The other flyer would earn 900 points (1242/1380 = .9 this factor is multiplied times 1000 to give you 900 points).

Thank goodness, the scoring program does all of this for you.

What this does is level out judging differences from round to round.

Dave

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnTheEdge View Post
The K factor is not there to eliminate judging differences but rather a way to guage the difficulty of the maneuver itself. (i.e. a hammer head with nothing up or down is not as hard as a hammerhead with a four point roll on the way up, therefore the higher K factor on the latter.)

You will see differences in judging, specially when using contestant judging. It's just a fact of Imac/ pattern etc. We all have seen times where two judges watching the same sequence rate them very differently. However, this is rare. If you look at your scores, you'll probably see that a large majority of the scores are within 1 - 1.5 points of each other.



Judging seminars help out very much though.
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Old 08-31-2007, 12:25 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Well, not sure if you understood.. I'll put it a bit different. In previous contests, I noticed when looking at my score sheets that when the higher class judges judged me, I got lower scores overall. It seems they were better at picking out multiple deductions per manuever and some of the lower class guys that judged me may have miss a couple deductions here and there. I noticed this by looking at a round where I had an unlimited judge and a sportsman judge (I was in basic at the time).

I brought this up to express my interest in learning to "multitask" successfully while judging others. I often get overwhelmed when judging higher classes than me and I know I am missing a lot, hence the guys I judge are getting to high of scores. I think I just need to imerse myself in the rules in the week before a contest so I am more comfortable finding as many downgrades as possible.
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