Hello ,

Never mix full scale and RC unless well communicated and briefed and written down before ...
People can get killed this way , luckely this time all went pretty well .
I was missing guys shooting rockets , dragsters on the runway , the local fanfare , football team doing a parade ...
Very poor orgonisation .
Amateurs are well , amateurs ...
Just my 2 cents .
Bruno .

Originally Posted by SleepyC

This past weekend at a full scale fly-in taking place at a private airport, an RC airplane was hit by a full scale Pitts during a "RC flight demo".

It is very important to mention that the full scale Pitts was landed safely and both occupants were unharmed.

Considering that many RC demos take place at full scale shows, and some RC shows take place at open full scale airports, I'd like you the modeling community to weigh in with your thoughts on how this accident could happen.

I have seen full scale/RC shows run with no issues at all. By using a dedicated Airboss, mobile radios, alert systems, and PA systems, the events run with both full scale traffic and RC flight traffic.

Like it or not this is huge news, and as a modeling community the situation needs to be addressed and discussed, not simply ignored or buried.

So please, let us know your thoughts.


The video of the incident:
YouTube- Real Biplane crashes into a 46% R/C plane.MOV

Sleepy You already answered on how it can be avoided, as we saw a clear demonstration of that at the Snap A Huckfest. I agree with you on the below. But then remember the pilot that did not call in and just landed. In every situation there will always be special ones.
Boy just glad no one got hurt
"I have seen full scale/RC shows run with no issues at all. By using a dedicated Airboss, mobile radios, alert systems, and PA systems, the events run with both full scale traffic and RC flight traffic." SleepyC

Originally Posted by FlyinTiger

Before we all start to speculate, it might be a good idea to hear what the RC pilot and spotter involved have to say...it sounds like there was a chain of events that caused an unfortunate accident. There are some details in the comments on the YouTube video.

Until I hear the facts, it is just an unfortunate incident.

This is (at least) the second thread created on this topic. The first one was closed, partly at the pilots request, partly because there were many personal attacks against the pilot of the 46% plane.

If this is to be a discussion used for educational purposes, it should be said that no personal attacks will be allowed.

Let's treat it like a review of what it is, and air to air collision between two aircraft.



What went wrong?

As mentioned,


General.

1)Poor communication. (Between ground and aircraft, between event "spotter" and rc pilot)

2)Lack of proper planning. (There seemed to be no bail out plane for a full scale aircraft in the airspace during the demo.)

3)Lack of proper spotter.

4)People have reported a lack of a NOTAM

5)Lack of crowd control. (It was pointed out that there were spectators milling out in the runway after the incident.)

The Pilots.

6)The full scale pilot disregarded the warning from the man with the radio. (There is much question as to his level of authority. Also questioned was if the man on the radio, was in contact with the Pitts pilot.)

7)The Pitts pilot made a low pass over the runway. "over" a crowd of people, during an event. (It appears that this was an unplanned, or at least poorly planned demonstration. Due to the fact the man with a radio [we're assuming he has some relation to the airport, and or the event] seemed surprised that this was happening.)

8)The RC pilot had no obvious spotter.

9)The RC pilot, had he a spotter, walked out into the runway, under the plane, and away from his spotter. Who, had he followed, would have had to put himself in the runway, and under the plane. This also made communications difficult, due to the noise of the RC aircraft's engine.

10)It seemed that there was some warning or instruction to the pilot, he moved the plane from the runway, out over the grass. Also, the plane apparently climbed, instead of moving down out of the potential path of the aircraft.


Now, in my line of work, when faced with the problems that lead to an incident, we are required to pose possible solutions to prevent it occurring again.


So, instead of calling people idiots, or other useless comments, please either point out additional errors that occurred, but I missed. Or, offer solutions, preventative measures that could be taken to keep something like this from happening at the next mixed event.

Now that I think about it, this is easy pickings for the FAA, insurance and lawyers. I believe they will go for them all, FS pilot, RC operator and organizer\staff. They will get a little from all but whoever can't keep up monetarily will get grilled.



Bryce

This is (at least) the second thread created on this topic. The first one was closed, partly at the pilots request, partly because there were many personal attacks against the pilot of the 46% plane.

If this is to be a discussion used for educational purposes, it should be said that no personal attacks will be allowed.

Good point.
The reason I posted this again is to avoid future situations like this.
Many RC events and demos successfully take place at full scale airports.
Lets make sure they can continue.

Please respect each other on this thread.
Arguing your point is fine, but please as stated above, leave personal attacks and childish behavior out of this thread!

..

Originally Posted by Wayne

Bottom line:
RC aircraft, in all situations will give the right of way to Full Scale Aircraft. Its very simple.
Thats the info the FAA, NTSB and Insurance companies will use in their investigations.
Any details beyond that are irrelevant.

You're 100% correct, in ideal circumstances.

I think it was best summed up here though, with this excellent comparison...

https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/...&postcount=549

(Sorry, the quote is from the closed thread, and I can't quote it directly)

Originally Posted by junkmail4mjd

I don't think that is really in dispute. What is in dispute is holding the R/C pilot liable.

For instance, a pedestrian "always" has the right of way as well. But if a pedestrian just jumps off the curb, and does not pay any attention to that car driving down the road and gets run over and killed, and the car driver had no/ insufficient reaction time to give that pedestrian the "right of way" then the car driver is not going to be held responsible for paying off all of the family members of the pedestrian. There frankly are lots and lots of examples of this to draw data from.

So, if a pilot does the same thing and gives the R/C modeler no time to give him the right of way then I don't see how the R/C modeler will be held liable. See, post about the R/C pilot who was released from liability when a full scale pilot was killed after a formal investigation that found him not at fault.

So, these people that keep throwing out black and white BS that the R/C pilot is by definition at fault because of "right of way" really need to consult some actual case law before being so certain it is that cut and dry. Try reading an NTSB accident report summary data. The majority of them are classified as pilot error. Without an investigation there is no saying whether or not they would classify this a pilot error.

Now the spotter / air boss guy on the other hand may have a much more difficult time escaping liability.

Why are we bringing attention to this? All the full size airshows I have seen have required a spotter beside the pilot. This one didnt have one. End of story. With it being blasted out in the open as flying giants has just done it wont be long before its on the front page of a newspaper. Stupid move.

Originally Posted by bruno

Hello ,

Never mix full scale and RC unless well communicated and briefed and written down before ...
Bruno .

I seem to remember one or two well-known pilots doing a mirror flight with giant scale models when Matt Chapman was in the air with his CAP. It was safety to a "T" and perfectly acceptable to all that saw the performance. There wasn't even a glimmer of a thought in anybody's mind that anything could go wrong. The big difference was that the communication factor was there, the pilots were of one accord throughout the whole performance and there was a line of separation that existed.
The You-Tube video played out some very large differences in this instance in how the whole mess came about. The fact that there were other airplanes there and also starting up in the background meant that the air boss AND the event organizer knew of their existence at the event and approved of them being there. (Somebody HAD to have given them some sort of go-ahead to launch and even be at the event.) Who had right-of-way has no bearing in this case.... Who hit whom is the question. How did the pilot of the Pitts receive his go-ahead to enter the runway area? I'd leave the model pilot out of the equation and get the Pitts Pilot and the Air Boss together in front of the Feds and let them explain what the heck both of them were thinking. Let's just take the model out of the picture and replace it with a parked car or parked fuel truck.......... See where I'm going with this? This isn't to say I'm arbitrarily against the full-scale guy..... I'm a full scale guy too and what I'm seeing is a breach of common sense. You do the hittin' and there has to be a reason for it. I have an idea.......... Somebody go get the pilot and the air boss and let Sleepy interview the both of them! (Nah.... Their lawyers won't mind them talking to us! LOL!)
WT

Originally Posted by SmoothFlying

Hoverlover needs to get him a real good lawyer. The only thing that might save him is if the owner of the Pitts does not deal with his insurance company. Once that call is made he can guarantee a call from the insurance looking for payment for the repair of the Pitts. Then the lawyers will get involved.

This is something all of us should think about.

You're from GA I see. Ever fly at Hodges? During an event?

I was at SEFF this year, and was astounded at how many people stayed in the air when the crop duster was working the field.

I was frustrated by the people who flew too close to Jason Cole while he was in his powered parachute.

I was disgusted by the ones that decided to keep hovering while Mac was putting on the B-29 demonstration.

There were several instances where an incident caused by bad judgement was averted only by good fortune.

Compared to those pilots, this rc pilot performed spectacularly. Even if he made some mistakes.

I have a couple of comments I'd like to make, the first would be the suggestion contained in the title of the thread that we are the modeling community. That is hardly the case. In my club there are about 120 members, out of that number there are maybe 5 that are even aware of this forum. If I were to extrapolate from that example then we represent about 1% of the modeling community. Most of the incidents I've heard of that were brought to the attention of the general public involved giant scale aircraft. I wonder why that is. I think it's high time we rethought about how we enjoy our part of this great hobby. I've seen vids on this site of guys flying giant scale 3D planes in store parking lots for crying out loud and reading comments like "great job" and the like. What are we doing to ourselves? Way to much irresponsable behavior going on in my opinion. I'm not going to even guess what was going on in this situation. I sure wouldn't have flown any of my planes in an area with parked full scale aircraft that close, not to mention air traffic in the area. Maybe I'd chance a foamy but sure as heck not a 35%er. I'd never trust my equipment that much. Just my thoughts on the subject...............

Tom

FG bro's let me clear things up as im the one in question. This was a charity event which brought all kinds of nice people together. We had a slotted time frame in which to fly, and by no means did the full scale pilot do this on purpose, it was a very unfortunate accident, I have spoken with Airboss, and pilot has filed a incident report, We are taking the matter as water under the bridge, we have done what we need to do by law.

We have all learned from this, and we are moving forward ! The AirBoss in question (Quit Bashing Him) Is a top notch pilot, and flys for a living. We all are taking this as equal responsibility, and so glad it ended the way it did. Mistakes were made and as (your mother taught you) learn from them, as we done. Sorry if I was rude to my other fellow FG friends. Hopefully we all on a new plane or project.

Thank You
Chris

Wow that was crazy. Communication is key b/c we all know that things happen fast in the air. I guess the lesson is if you are going to operate RC and Full scale at the same time you need 1 person in charge of the show and everyone taking orders from him or her. IMO RC and full scale should never occupy the same airspace, just to much risk, too much on the line.

Originally Posted by jbourke

The Pitts pilot broke at least one regulation. A pilot is not allowed to fly his aircraft within 500 feet of a person or obstacle except for the purpose of take off or landing. Since his smoke was on and his airspeed was high, he clearly wasn't landing his aircraft.

Unless there was a waiver in place the pilot is going to have some explaining to do for that reason alone.

Jim

Great point. It seems the Pitts was in show-off mode for sure.

Originally Posted by mikeymikeymikey

Why are we bringing attention to this? All the full size airshows I have seen have required a spotter beside the pilot. This one didnt have one. End of story. With it being blasted out in the open as flying giants has just done it wont be long before its on the front page of a newspaper. Stupid move.

Only if the reactions are stupid.

If a mature, intelligent conversation can be had about what went wrong, and what could be done to correct it, it's a non story.

"RC airplane and full scale aircraft collide:

RC community takes steps to police itself and enacts policies to prevent future incidents."


Sure is less exciting than,

"RC community works to cover up accident with full scale plane"

Trust me, there's likely plenty of full scale forums talking about this already.

Now the question is, are we adults, who are scale aircraft enthusiasts and can discuss such matters with consideration and respect. Or will be be seen as big boys with big toys, bickering and pointing fingers?