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rochester, ny
Joined Aug 2006
282 Posts
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Help!
Inverted Harriers
I am actually pretty decent at upright harriers even with an airplane that has quite a bit of wing rock. I can also do harrier rolls pretty well. However, i'm struggling a little more than I expected with inverted harriers. I'm still working on these on RealFlight but it seems the airplanes within the sim just do not want to settle down and lock in and wing rock is crazy. Even for a model that upright is fully locked in like the PAU Edge. I also think I have the rudder, aileron, throttle and elevator fairly coordinated. I'm now able to get into and sustain an inverted harrier but the airplane is definetly fighting it. Here's my question. Is it normal for an airplane to naturally perform an upright harrier better than inverted? On most of my 3D airplanes I can hit an 3d Elevator upright and the airplane will just settle in and sink with minimal aileron / rudder. The same airplane inverted full 3d elevator and it instantly tumbles out. Again, is it harder to sustain inverted harriers. Based on the consistent inverted elevator difficulty that is the conclusion I'm drawing but hopefully someone can help shed light on my plight.
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Are you asking about real life or just Real Flight?
A couple of points: - Simulators are great, but no substitute for a real airplane. The models you're using on the computer may have tons of washout built in, which would explain upright VS inverted - How much throw do you have, in degrees, up VS down? - Planes are built with some degree of right thrust, usually 2.5 as a starting point, but when you are inverted, that is now backwards. Inverted, you'll likely need left rudder to fly straight. - Try to learn to finess, so you can use as much or as little throw as you need. That way, even if you have significantly more throw than needed, you can just back off the stick a little. The most important bit of advice I can give you: The answer is written in the bottom of a jug of fuel. |
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To me... most planes are easy to harrier inverted vs upright. They tend to be more stable inverted, as a rule. Soon you'll be cruising around inverted with ease.
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rochester, ny
Joined Aug 2006
282 Posts
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I guess according to this video RealFlight sim presents more wing rock...which has scared me off on real life practice. i guess I'll have at it.
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I used to feel the exact same way as you do, mrc100...but, once you get a hang of it...inverted harriers are actually easier. (IMHO)
The thing is...they "feel" different...the best way I can explain it is that, TO ME, you can't fly an inverted harrier like you do a regular harrier...it's almost a completely different maneuver...the principle is the same, it's just different. It just takes practice...my best pointer to is get the reversed rudder control as close to muscle memory as you can...not having to think about that leaves some brain cycles to concentrate on the different feel. It's funny to read your post because you sound just like me several years ago...I would fly upright harriers all day every day and I struggled to go inverted. You just have to learn the different feel of it and you'll be golden. |
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rochester, ny
Joined Aug 2006
282 Posts
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Thanks for the help djmoose. I took my foam plan out late this afternoon and made some progress. Wow, you are right about turning left being easier. Tomorrow I'm going out with my larger planes and will work on it. A little break through for me today.
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The reason for the left VS right turning difference is due to the left turning tendencies from the prop, and the roughly 2.5 degrees of right thrust built in to help offset that. When you roll inverted, that 2.5 degrees of right thrust has now effectively become 2.5 degrees of 'left' thrust when referenced to the longitudinal axis (line between the spinner and rudder) of the airplane. The prop doesn't know whether the plane is inverted or not, so p-factor is still alive and well, but without the correct thrust line to help you. So, since your engine is now angled the 'wrong' way, making your thrust line essentially 5 degrees to the 'left' of where it should be, and that's combined with the fact that the downward moving prop blade is producing more thrust (p-factor) than the ascending blade, you have a plane that wants to go to your left on it's own. The higher your AOA, the more pronounced P-factor will be.
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Easiest way to get the correct rudder input when doing inverted harriers;
When the nose is coming towards you, drag the nose with the rudder stick (ie....want the nose to move to your right, push the rudder stick to the right) When you're looking at the tail.....going away.......drag the tail with the rudder stick. You don't really have to think about left vs right....just drag the nose, or tail in the direction you wish it to go. |
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Enjoying this thread. |
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Quote:
Suppose neither the nose or tail is towards you. IOW's left or right wing towards you. What then? Answer: Steer the part of the aircraft that is closest to you when inverted. |
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rochester, ny
Joined Aug 2006
282 Posts
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Quote:
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rochester, ny
Joined Aug 2006
282 Posts
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Suppose u are flying parallel to the runway. When it is approaching you/center .... This is nose towards you scenario. When it has passed you / center .... This is tail towards you. At least that's what I do.
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Whatever works is what you should use. I developed a set of rules for rudder usage years ago with helis that I give my students. Of course this is only for the initial phases of training as once the orientations become ingrained they happen without a lot of conscious thought.
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I concur, planes almost always are more stable inverted than upright in real life, the sim its kinda a toss up...
I noticed inverted harriers require less elevator to maintain a high alpha attitude. How I learned was starting up right then rolling inverted and going from there. The best practice is with your plane, just start as high as you feel comfortable and just keep doing them until you can start doing them lower and lower. |
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