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Old 09-03-2007, 07:28 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

I actually witnessed this at Milford as well as CAPI and asked the pilot about it. I was told that it was done on purpose. I then remembered a video I once saw with Mark Leseburg saying he does the same thing as it shows the judges he is in total control.

Granted I like the look of it but to me it is an obvious change in roll rate and I feel I can see the difference especially when it rolls quickly to a certain degree (say 25 degrees for posterity) then slows which I think is actually what we are talking about here.

Here is the video I am referencing

[ame]https://www.flyinggiants.com/gallery/data/583/PointRollsm.wmv[/ame]
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Old 09-03-2007, 07:40 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

In that video, I wouldn't have dinged him any points on roll rate with the 260, but some (not all) of the Showtime point rolls were very exaggerated that points would be taken off.
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Old 09-03-2007, 10:02 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Hi guys, interesting thread. Mark do you have any idea what time the judging seminar will get started and how long it will last. Will the seminar attendees be able to judge at the Water Gap meet?

Tony Bonanno
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:41 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Hey Mark, you are right... and I also learned this technique from both Mark L. and a full scale IAC pilot i know. If you do them more naturally like Mark does in the video show there is no downgrade, you cant really pick out any sudden change in roll rate. I do not believe that I was doing this at the Capi, and no I didnt get any downgrounds. Its a very fine line. Basically a point roll can be done however you want it. my IAC pilot friend... said that when doing point rolls its better to roll somewhat faster and pause between points only the amount of time it took to do the roll. a 1 second hesitation between rolls is the max you can do with out being downgraded.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:11 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Well Chris, your points looked great. I could tell a distinct difference in yours compared to others in your class. But this is where my judging skills are weak and boy am I glad I didn't have to judge unlimited.
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Old 09-04-2007, 06:19 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Quote:
Originally Posted by hovermaster View Post
Hey Mark, you are right... and I also learned this technique from both Mark L. and a full scale IAC pilot i know. If you do them more naturally like Mark does in the video show there is no downgrade, you cant really pick out any sudden change in roll rate. I do not believe that I was doing this at the Capi, and no I didnt get any downgrounds. Its a very fine line. Basically a point roll can be done however you want it. my IAC pilot friend... said that when doing point rolls its better to roll somewhat faster and pause between points only the amount of time it took to do the roll. a 1 second hesitation between rolls is the max you can do with out being downgraded.
I have to ask. Where in the rule book does it say that points must not be more than a second long ? Change in the roll rate however is a deduction.


Albert
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Old 09-04-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Quote:
Originally Posted by hovermaster View Post
I do not believe that I was doing this at the Capi, and no I didnt get any downgrounds.
You were definitely doing it at the CAPI but, for some reason, I wasn't thinking of the roll rate change rule at the time and didn't downgrade. It was very subtle and you looked totally in control of your points- all were the same and, yes, they were prettier to look at.

Having said that, as a result of this discussion I believe I would be downgrading for this in the future- so fair warning!

Dave
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:27 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Haha thanks Dave, I'll make sure and be even more subtle about it lol.

Albert, I dont know exactly where or what the criteria is, but I know that you get downgraded by drawing to long of lines between figures within one maneuver and if its too long its like creating a new figure and will be zeroed.

Family 7:4 states that Drawing a line between a loop and roll ie: an immelman will result in a -2 point deduction, if the roll starts before the loop is completed it is a -1 point deduction per 10 deg. If the roll never occurs it will be graded as a zero.

Family 9:2 The rolls and rythm must be consistant and the pauses between points must be recognizable and if they are not the maneuver will be zeroed.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:28 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Is it really a change in roll rate though Dave? That's where I see a fine line. If it's a quick "get up to roll rate speed" bump in the ailerons, I don't have any problem and actually agree that they present better. If indeed it's a very pronounced jab and then a "noticeably" slow roll to the points, then it's a downgrade for sure.

Just another one of those Imac judging "grey areas" I guess.
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Old 09-04-2007, 08:57 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

You won't see any change in roll rate during my zero of eight!

What time are you thinking of starting on Friday Mark?

Trent
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:00 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Depends on what time most of the guys feel they can get there. Obviously the early evening would be best, but I think we are better off to make sure we have as many of the new folks as possible. Can most of us make it by 6:00pm?
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:58 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Hm, Im still downgrading your 0 of 8 Trout! lol j.k

6 sounds good Mark

I'll have my TOC JR sponsored all Carbon Fiber Stick plane and a whole book of rules and sequences! lol
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Old 09-04-2007, 11:02 PM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

6 sounds good for me also. How long do you think it will last and will those attending the seminar be judging during the weekend?

Tony
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Old 09-05-2007, 06:42 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

Not sure on the time frame Tony as it is an impromptu meeting. I'd guess no more than an hour or so. Depends on questions and participation.

As for judging, that's up to the CD (Joe Bobeck). If the person feels confident on judging, I don't see that as an issue, but again, the CD oversees this. However, as stated earlier, I'd recommend the new folks sit down and scribe for a few seasoned judges for the first few rounds. One can learn a lot, while applying what they just learned and ask questions of the judges (after the sequence is complete) as to how they came to a particular score. Basically comparing notes.
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Old 09-05-2007, 06:50 AM
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Re: Semi-formal Imac mini-judging seminar--Friday evening--Water Gap Contest

I wont be able to make it at 6, but I will be there afterwards. I think anytime on Friday evening, I am going to get slammed with traffic coming down I95. Ill try to make it, but who knows what the traffic is going to do.
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