I'll 2nd that!

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

it is time to put all these 70 year old planes in a museum and start building ground-up racing planes with todays tools and technology....

I like that idea, and really wanted to see the Rutan Pond Racer do well: couple of Nissan turbo v-6's that dominated IMSA racing in the late 80's/early 90's and carbon fiber. Was not to be unfortunately...

I find it strange that with the large sums of money spent modifying and racing these planes, that simple locknuts were left alone; most professional drag racers (to use the earlier analogy) tear down and change out parts on a regular basis, like between rounds! Maybe the race series itself needs more rules/regulations for tech inspections and such (eek--did I just say that out loud?)...

so much of the auto technology comes from racing... and it eventually trickles down to our mini-vans....

seems if air racing was mandated to NOT use ancient relics of WWII, there would be some 21st century
technology infused into the event!....

Perhaps a SAS mighta prevented that plane from killing her pilot??

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

it is time to put all these 70 year old planes in a museum and start building ground-up racing planes with todays tools and technology....

Agreed. The sport class is already infringing upon the Unlimited class speeds these days. It's a shame we can't get someone like Bob Pond or Klein Gilhousen to build a ground-up racer again.

I've thought about this before, and I'm no expert, but if you wanted to build a new racer from the ground up you'd likely start with the engine. Building a completely new engine from scratch is probably a bit of a long shot, so you find a large engine that's currently available our there somewhere. Likely you will end up with the same merlin that's in the P-51 or the large radial that's in the sea furry. Then you start building an airframe around said engine, and it winds up looking an awful lot like a P-51 or sea furry. Sure you made a couple parts out of carbon instead of aluminum but wouldn't you wind up with a pretty similar plane?

I dunno. Just thinking out loud here.

Originally Posted by Shaker

Agreed. The sport class is already infringing upon the Unlimited class speeds these days. It's a shame we can't get someone like Bob Pond or Klein Gilhousen to build a ground-up racer again.

So far, that has gone far worse than modifying stock WWII airframes. To be honest, there just isn't the money to truly develop world class racers for one event IMHO. Very little money to be made. Very high liability. This accident has only made that worse, IMHO.

Scott

I dont think its about the money at all. Break it down to its basic components. You have a team of mechanics and engineers that took a 70 year wreck and tried to make it something memorable in a modern day event by extending its design performance beyond that which it was originally intended. In doing so they forgot to do their job completely and omitted basic mechanical practices that should have been carried out from day one. In doing so they turned a vintage plane that should have been admired for what it was into a self destructing weapon. Had this crash not taken place when it did the team would have stretched the limits of the aircraft further still. The crash was inevitable because the team couldnt see for whatever reason a point were enough was enough for the equipment they were using and only a complete re design would ever progress safely beyond a given point.

Originally Posted by BRBR

I dont think its about the money at all. Break it down to its basic components. You have a team of mechanics and engineers that took a 70 year wreck and tried to make it something memorable in a modern day event by extending its design performance beyond that which it was originally intended. In doing so they forgot to do their job completely and omitted basic mechanical practices that should have been carried out from day one. Had this crash not taken place when it did the team would have stretched the limits of the aircraft further still. The crash was inevitable because the team couldnt see for whatever reason a point were enough was enough for the equipment they were using and only a complete re design would ever progress safely beyond a given point.

I totally agree....and if it had not been that scores of spectators had been killed and/or injured this would have been allowed to continue.
I also cannot believe that the "air races" would allow aircraft with modifications NOT approved by the FAA to fly in these races....and to falsify information on the entry form, thats another story.

Is it just me or did the NTSB Chairperson seem like she has been promoted FAR BEYOND her capabilities? Some of the questions they were asking were true DUH! moments. The team of actual investigators must have been rolling their eyes. Great investigation, extremely interesting. Millions of dollars, multiple injuries and 11 deaths over some pretty basic engineering evaluations and $25 worth of nuts and screws.

I certainly wouldn't cast too many stones at the team that built this, they are essentially in uncharted waters experimenting literally between flights in a sport which instead of brings money in (a' la' NASCAR) it only pumps money out. These guys invest enormous amounts of energy and money in pursuit of a passion. I would venture to guess that before this, there was no real appreciation of the danger to the crowds, instead, the assumption was likely that the pilots themselves were the only ones assuming risk, and they were really into it. Given the course design, it was really the perfect storm of things going wrong in the right place at the right time that put the plane into the crowd, although having the planes turning down the stretch in front of the crowd doesn't really make sense, seems that should be a complete straight away so there is minimal time for energy to be focused in the direction of the crowd.

One thing that was a little puzzling, the discussion of the pilot slumping forward and basically locking right aileron in, what about shoulder harnesses? In an early interview with another P-51s mech, he stated the seat rails were prone to failure (collapse), I wonder if that was ever ruled out?

Again, very interesting,
Kev

I don't think they should be completely restricted to never flying these old warbirds. They should be flown like Steve Hinton and co. Do at Planes of Fame. But to incompetently modify and lie about your age in a venue like the Reno Air Races is beyond me. Just a few feet short of where it did crash and that likely would have been the end of that sport.

Every year we seem to loose more of our rare aircraft, not to mention loss of life, to careless, stupid things. Hell, I replace nylon nuts on my big gas RC planes when I take them off. I don't reuse them.

That's ridiculous.

my family has been a part of air racing since the early 70's in the formula one class. race #2 okie stroker..#6 0kie stryker...#19 0kie streaker...#10 el bandito...miss usa and and few other planes. we have always prided ourselves on safety first and building a fast sound aircraft...its impossible to check and double check each and every nut and bolt between heats and championship races! but we as race crews do our very best to try to make sure that theae aircraft are ready and airworthy! in this hobby we have all overlooked small things that have ended in a loss of an airplane and we as a whole do it on a daily basis! tired of hearing the same people in this hobby calling exceptional pilots neglegent and saying how much better a balsa model builder could or would have done it better!! weve experimented with aerodynamics and weight and balance and power and dimensions for years to go faster and we are still walking and flying today after 40 yrs!!!

In response to all the potential law suits for those on the ground that were killed: is there some kind of release from liability agreed to when purchasing a ticket for the race? It may even be printed on the back of the ticket.....

Just thinking out loud here.

It is impossible to check every nut and bolt between heats. But the report shows evidence that these hadn't been changed for more than 20 years. And a prior accident had demonstrated that the trim tab was a really critical part that could lead to out of control flight. Somehow these didn't get on the list of things to pay extra attention to, unlike the other thousands of things that can be let ride with less impact.

Not saying these guys were incompetant, but they were playing close to the edge every day. They got used to the cliff and forgot how high it is and didn't realize just how close to the edge they were. Just a little more every day. The next day isn't much worse than the day before, but after a few years you have edged way beyond anything you would have thought sane originally, and in this case had edged into what looks insane when seen in the perfect vision of hindsight.

How many of us are guilty of similar behavior with our toys?

As I was watching the video I was thinking back to a quote on a plaque my brother gave me when I received my pilot's license:

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London. c. early 1930's.

One thing that confuses me, however, is the assymetrical trim tab arrangement. I would think that set-up would cause a roll tendency which wouldn't be too agreeable at 400 knots and may be some of the reason for the diagonal ripples in the empennage. I also read in the PDF document that Stilletto had that same set-up. I don't know if anyone on this forum can answer this, but is that a common way to set-up trim tabs on these racers?

Originally Posted by nordqk

As I was watching the video I was thinking back to a quote on a plaque my brother gave me when I received my pilot's license:

Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.

— Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London. c. early 1930's.

One thing that confuses me, however, is the assymetrical trim tab arrangement. I would think that set-up would cause a roll tendency which wouldn't be too agreeable at 400 knots and may be some of the reason for the diagonal ripples in the empennage. I also read in the PDF document that Stilletto had that same set-up. I don't know if anyone on this forum can answer this, but is that a common way to set-up trim tabs on these racers?

Your post is absolutely true including the quote from Capt. Lamplugh.

The asymmetric trim tab setup is designed to reduce drag as only one tab is deflected into the airflow, but you're absolutely right that it caused torsional loading on the fuselage, which had already been weakened by the removal of the belly scoop.

The basic facts are, the P-51 Mustang was designed for normal operations at around 350 mph. The incidence setup between the wing and stab allowed for basically neutral trim at these speeds. When you start getting into the speeds that Galloping Ghost was seeing, there is a significant pitch up tendency that starts to develop, which only gets worse as speed increases. There are some who also believe removal of the belly scoop removed a significant nose-down pitch force from the basic trim, making things even worse in this regard. So when the trim tab broke, the resulting pitch forces onset so quickly that there was literally nothing that could be done.

The really sad fact of this accident, is everything that happened, from the trim failure, to the resulting g-loads, pitch changes, etc. was WELL documented due to basically the exact same failure in 1998 when Bob Hannah had his trim tab fail on Race #98 - Voodoo at over 450mph. Fortunately for Bob, he was in level flight when it happened. The airplane experienced an almost instant 12g pitch up, Bob was G-LOCd, and the airplane climbed to over 9,000 feet before Bob regained consciousness, and was able to gain control of the airplane. He was along for the ride for nearly 20 seconds before waking up.

I think it's irresponsible to categorize EVERYONE in the racing community because of the way Leeward's crew failed to maintain the aircraft properly. Clearly as Jabpitts can attest, a LOT of people are out there doing everything possible to ensure the aircraft is a safe as possible.

The reality however, is Leeward and his crew KNEW about problems within the trim system, and simply ignored them. You don't just re-tighten lock nuts. EVER. You replace them. They're cheap. You certainly don't just re-tighten lock nuts that had been on the airplane for TWENTY SIX YEARS, and had no friction resistance any longer. I truly cannot fathom how anyone on that crew could sign off on anything related to that system. It's beyond explanation.