Originally Posted by Warwix

My mistake, I meant to put round. Thanks for catching that.

psst... sequence

Any one on the board of directors for iMac can you please answer this...
Wayne posted this:
One one hand: The rule that Clark quoted is exactly what is expected of pilots at the end of a sequence if the aircraft is inverted. Any deviation from the required half roll to upright FIRST, will/should result in the sequence being zeroed. Judges who do not zero the sequence, are obviously not following the requirements expected of them.

However the rules DO NOT STATE THIS! Not that I found... I found a list of OPTIONS! None of them specifically call out in plain English that if the sequence ends inverted, you MUST or SHALL immediately perform a half roll to upright... it is in billeted print as an option... this is my issue and part of the issue with iMac and why it is dying... rules should not be open for interpretation like this! This is a much bigger problem that people think and not just with this issue but I even asked about this 3 years ago and was told the same thing by Wayne however it is not printed as it is enforced! Please some mine address officially and make an addendum to the rules or a "guide"

Originally Posted by exeter_acres

psst... sequence

HAHA, jeez. My brain just isn't running at max capacity today. Thanks

Originally Posted by Carruthers43

Any one on the board of directors for iMac can you please answer this...
Wayne posted this:
One one hand: The rule that Clark quoted is exactly what is expected of pilots at the end of a sequence if the aircraft is inverted. Any deviation from the required half roll to upright FIRST, will/should result in the sequence being zeroed. Judges who do not zero the sequence, are obviously not following the requirements expected of them.

However the rules DO NOT STATE THIS! Not that I found... I found a list of OPTIONS! None of them specifically call out in plain English that if the sequence ends inverted, you MUST or SHALL immediately perform a half roll to upright... it is in billeted print as an option... this is my issue and part of the issue with iMac and why it is dying... rules should not be open for interpretation like this! This is a much bigger problem that people think and not just with this issue but I even asked about this 3 years ago and was told the same thing by Wayne however it is not printed as it is enforced! Please some mine address officially and make an addendum to the rules or a "guide"

To clarify..... Please take a look at the entire rule...And I quote:
13.5.
Prior to entering the aerobatic airspace, between sequences, and prior to landing, pilots shall only be allowed to perform the following trim and positioning maneuvers:"

Then it goes on to list: • Single half roll to upright immediately after exiting the aerobatic airspace for the case in which an inverted exit from the last maneuver is required;

I do think your question is already answered in the rule book and does not require a BOD member to clarify.
Regards,
Wayne

Originally Posted by Carruthers43

Any one on the board of directors for iMac can you please answer this...
Wayne posted this:
One one hand: The rule that Clark quoted is exactly what is expected of pilots at the end of a sequence if the aircraft is inverted. Any deviation from the required half roll to upright FIRST, will/should result in the sequence being zeroed. Judges who do not zero the sequence, are obviously not following the requirements expected of them.

However the rules DO NOT STATE THIS! Not that I found... I found a list of OPTIONS! None of them specifically call out in plain English that if the sequence ends inverted, you MUST or SHALL immediately perform a half roll to upright... it is in billeted print as an option... this is my issue and part of the issue with iMac and why it is dying... rules should not be open for interpretation like this! This is a much bigger problem that people think and not just with this issue but I even asked about this 3 years ago and was told the same thing by Wayne however it is not printed as it is enforced! Please some mine address officially and make an addendum to the rules or a "guide"

Okay - pay attention to the wording:

Prior to entering the aerobatic airspace, between sequences, and prior to landing, pilots shall only be allowed to perform the following trim and positioning maneuvers:

• Single half roll to upright immediately after exiting the aerobatic
airspace for the case in which an inverted exit from the last maneuver is
required

I left a few of the other items out that have already been posted. The key word is "shall".

Go back to post 281, Keith posted the rule in the entirety.

There is a list of allowed maneuvers and the statement above that a single HALF ROLL to upright if the last maneuver ends inverted.

As we were told in the national judging school there are a list of acceptable maneuvers and if it isn't listed it is not an acceptable maneuver.

FYI the rules committee made something like 58 changes of words from should to shall as well as clearing up some of the other confusing or gray areas. It's a work in progress by volunteers that have done a great job in making changes as well as working on a training/education program that is still in the works. One other detail - the IMAC numbers are on the rise and there is a great many people working to promote IMAC in every region, nationally, and internationally.


Okay - all the black and white aside personally I would prefer to push for a negative G Half Cuban from inverted to exit upright. I am a member of the IMAC BOD and will bring this up for discussion (not for clarity because it is clearly stated) but as a possible recommendation to the rules committee. As for now and for the purpose of larger events I would recommend practicing as the rule is written so that when you get to a contest this is not unfamiliar to you.

Thanks Clark.

I did not "see" that part. When you broke it out I feel it is clear stating that you can only perform that maneuver if you exit inverted.

As with what chymas wrote I totally agree a negative G cuban would be a great alternative as you could immediately push hard and begin flying back towards the pilot station and have better control over your airplane.

Originally Posted by wmat7039

To clarify..... Please take a look at the entire rule...And I quote:
13.5.
Prior to entering the aerobatic airspace, between sequences, and prior to landing, pilots shall only be allowed to perform the following trim and positioning maneuvers:"

Then it goes on to list: • Single half roll to upright immediately after exiting the aerobatic airspace for the case in which an inverted exit from the last maneuver is required;

I do think your question is already answered in the rule book and does not require a BOD member to clarify.
Regards,
Wayne

Well I stand corrected... thank you Wayne! No shame here I was incorrect... thank you

Originally Posted by Carruthers43

Well I stand corrected... thank you Wayne! No shame here I was incorrect... thank you

No problem mon. Let's move forward and see how pilots can protect their investment. That is more important.

So why is it legal to do a push half Cuban with no roll to enter but not to exit the sequence?

Originally Posted by wmat7039

To clarify..... Please take a look at the entire rule...And I quote:
13.5.
Prior to entering the aerobatic airspace, between sequences, and prior to landing, pilots shall only be allowed to perform the following trim and positioning maneuvers:"

Then it goes on to list: • Single half roll to upright immediately after exiting the aerobatic airspace for the case in which an inverted exit from the last maneuver is required;

I do think your question is already answered in the rule book and does not require a BOD member to clarify.
Regards,
Wayne

That is only one in a list of many legal turnaround options, including this:

• A vertical up or down line with a simple push/pull for entry and exit. A
single 1/2 roll is allowed on this vertical line only if required to orient the
aircraft properly for entry to the first maneuver.

It seems to me that a push to vertical upline and push exit from that line is also perfectly legal.

Originally Posted by kwilson

So why is it legal to do a push half Cuban with no roll to enter but not to exit the sequence?

Hi all,
Kevin, to your question, it's because the 1/2 cuban still originates from positive / upright flight.
Maneuvers originating from inverted flight, except the 1/2 roll to upright, have never been considered or taught as allowable turn-around figures. For as long as I have been involved in judging schools the consensus has always been that the absence of a descriptor indicating negative by default means the figure is positive in nature.
I certainly agree with the position that the rule is vague and leaves room for interpretation, and that is being addressed. However, there is a proper process by which that must happen, and we cannot allow dissension in a public forum to override a standard which has been taught for years. CDs, by rule, have the ability to make exceptions, and that is fine if they choose to do so. But until the actual rule is changed, we must stick with the standard that has been taught all along. In this case that means that unless otherwise noted, turn arounds initiate from upright flight.
Now, the vertical line text does open another can of worms, but may in fact provide an option here. The intent of it's addition a few years ago was as an entry option. Why it was worded "push/pull" I don't know, but I'll look into it and see if there is agreement for it's use in the case of sequence exit from inverted.
Kevin, I know I quoted and replied to your post, but much of this is to the thread in general.
t

Originally Posted by tl_3

Hi all,
Kevin, to your question, it's because the 1/2 cuban still originates from positive / upright flight.
Maneuvers originating from inverted flight, except the 1/2 roll to upright, have never been considered or taught as allowable turn-around figures. For as long as I have been involved in judging schools the consensus has always been that the absence of a descriptor indicating negative by default means the figure is positive in nature.
I certainly agree with the position that the rule is vague and leaves room for interpretation, and that is being addressed. However, there is a proper process by which that must happen, and we cannot allow dissension in a public forum to override a standard which has been taught for years. CDs, by rule, have the ability to make exceptions, and that is fine if they choose to do so. But until the actual rule is changed, we must stick with the standard that has been taught all along. In this case that means that unless otherwise noted, turn arounds initiate from upright flight.
Now, the vertical line text does open another can of worms, but may in fact provide an option here. The intent of it's addition a few years ago was as an entry option. Why it was worded "push/pull" I don't know, but I'll look into it and see if there is agreement for it's use in the case of sequence exit from inverted.
Kevin, I know I quoted and replied to your post, but much of this is to the thread in general.
t

In regards to the vertical line

• A vertical up or down line with a simple push/pull for entry and exit. A single 1/2 roll is allowed on this vertical line only if required to orient the aircraft properly for entry to the first maneuver.

This is my understanding. Still only left with the option of a half roll on exit.

So the wording in the first sentence should probably be changed from the "push/pull for entry and exit" to read "push/pull for entry".

OK, am I correct in saying; The only legal option for exiting the 90 degree roller is a half roll to upright and that this is based solely on the assumption that all other allowable manuevers are out because it is assumed that all of these Aresti maneuvers must start from an upright position?

Question; If I understand correctly, one or more of the above "Posts" has suggested that
there is a Rule Change in progress relating to this issue.
If there is a Rule Change in progress, is it to
allow for a push out of this maneuver or to clarifythe existing position?