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Old 09-18-2007, 08:37 PM
SleepyC is offline
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Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Please don't take this as a dumb question.
here we go...

I have always liked the look of the Edge 540.
But watching the Red Bull air races, MAN it dominates the other aerobatic aircraft.

In fact while watching the Istambul race the announcers basically made fun of the extra 300 and the MX2.

Why is this?

In RC, the Edge seems to be the 3D choice, but is frowned upon for IMAC.

I understand the snap characteristics of the edge models and all, but I guess my question is, are the full scale airplanes of the models we fly completely different when it comes to thier aerobatic and speed capabilities??

Just wondering.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:44 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

I don't know the answer for sure, but I can tell you that at Oshkosh, The Collaborators flew their routine with an Edge, a couple Extras, and a Pitts. The Edge had noticeably more power and retained energy far better than the others. I'd say that'd be handy in a race.
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:49 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

It probably has more to do with power to weight, the actual weight of the plane, and the inertia it is carying including its wings.... all these things maybe more than the actual airframe, but I dont know what I am talking about....
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:50 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

I think it is mostly about weight. Edges are super light, and has a very high power to weight ratio.

"In addition to the advanced EDGE wing, the E-540 aircraft utilizes a computer optimized steel tube fuselage with a number of unique features. This results in a stronger, lighter fuselage that is designed to take over 15 G's of sustained loading. The use of steel tube frame with composite fairings results in an extremely light, easily repairable, and very durable overall fuselage. The E-540 aircraft has the highest aerobatic thrust to weight ratio of any competition aerobatic aircraft currently available; weighting over 300 lbs. less than the Extra 300S (the E-540 also has an additional 27+ HP)."
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Old 09-18-2007, 08:54 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Quote:
I think it is mostly about weight. Edges are super light.
I think this may be it, AND with the races its just cutting turns and KE flight.
NO SNAPS!
haha.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:09 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

I know Extra is building an airplane that is optimized for Red Bull style racing.I think you will see more and more aerobatic designs morphed/altered for racing. As for the HP, Monty Barrett can build about anything you want. Most of these style planes are using a Lycoming IO-540.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:11 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

some is the weight, but mostly i think its the wing. i remember reading about this when the edge used the extra fuse and was winning everything. so the extra stoped selling them the fuse and they came up with thier own. if my memory serves me correct.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:12 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Weight is part of it. Most of the advatage is the airfoil. The airfoil, while thick and symetrical, has much lower drag than other aerobatic aircraft. It's coefficient of lift is much better.

Dan
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:15 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

He would know! ^ LOL
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:16 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rede2fly View Post
some is the weight, but mostly i think its the wing. i remember reading about this when the edge used the extra fuse and was winning everything. so the extra stoped selling them the fuse and they came up with thier own. if my memory serves me correct.
No, Zivko Aeronautics orignally built replacement wings for Lasers. There were a few sold to otheres, like Wayne Hnadley and his Raven. There has never been an Edge wing on an Extra.

Extra sold some wings to Cap, Cap 231EX. When Extra stopped selling wings to Cap they got them somewhere else and changed the designation to the Cap 232.

Dan
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:18 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rede2fly View Post
some is the weight, but mostly i think its the wing. i remember reading about this when the edge used the extra fuse and was winning everything. so the extra stoped selling them the fuse and they came up with thier own. if my memory serves me correct.

I thought CAP were buying Extra wings,, 231EX was an Extra wing.
Did Zivco ever use Extra wings or fuse?
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:43 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Another major factor is the fact that the straight leading edge basically gives the Edge the properties of a forward swept wing (FSW) if you consider a line drawn along the mean chord i.e. draw a line from 35% at the root to 35% at the tip and you will notice it sweeps forward.

Anyway this aerodynamic FSW creates an inherent instability almost like having anhedral (as opposed to dihedral). Every 10 degree forward sweep is approximately the same as 1 degree anhedral (the opposite for rear swept wings / dihedral)...

This is what makes the Edge so responsive to roll which is great for the bank and yank turns in Red Bull Air Races.

This is also the reason pattern planes had swpet back leading edges and straight trailing edges for years - it promoted stability by creating aerodynamic dihedral.... stability both inverted and upright unlike regular dihdral.

Oh yes.... and power to weight and a sick colour scheme too! lol

I hope this provides a little more insight.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:56 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by N726AC View Post
I know Extra is building an airplane that is optimized for Red Bull style racing.I think you will see more and more aerobatic designs morphed/altered for racing. As for the HP, Monty Barrett can build about anything you want. Most of these style planes are using a Lycoming IO-540.
Actually, Ivanoff has been racing the new Extra for 3 or so races and the Edge has continued to win. Besenyei completed one training run with the new Extra and went back to the Edge. He said it needed some more adjustments. The new Extra as it sits is closer to the Edge but still not there. With some fine tuning it might be able to beat a stock Edge but only time will tell.

Dan
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:14 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

or maybe the better pilots just fly edges?
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:23 PM
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Re: Red Bull Air races - Edge dominates. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtreem3d View Post
or maybe the better pilots just fly edges?
At least the better ones that want to win.

Dan
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