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Old 04-05-2016, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by orthobird View Post
How would you score this figure in a IMAC competition:

Figure calls for a hammerhead, 1/4 roll on the up and 2 of 8 on the down, exit same direction as entry, meaning, let's say, coming in from left to right into the hammer, you must exit from right to left.

the person did the 1/4 roll on way up, and did hammer well, on the down, the pilot rolled opposite direction, immediately corrected, then rolled 2 of 8 on down to correct exit. the "Wrong" roll was about 70 degrees

what would you score this?
as long as the roll is less that 270 degrees it's a corrective maneuver. However it will still probably be a 0 as the correction was a lot of degrees and would have eaten all the points. Without seeing it, it's hard to tell though.
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Old 04-05-2016, 06:47 AM
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would have been .5 for 5 degrees, or 1 point for every ten degrees, based on 70 degree rotation, it would be 7 points.

however, score is a 0 or a 3?
what say the gurus?

was Aresti not performed?

Was the opposite direction roll allowable and considered an " -----" I really do not know what that would be called, and thus, the reason for my question. I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the pilot, but let's say, it is the NATS, how would that be scored if it happens there?
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Old 04-05-2016, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by orthobird View Post
would have been .5 for 5 degrees, or 1 point for every ten degrees, based on 70 degree rotation, it would be 7 points.

however, score is a 0 or a 3?
what say the gurus?

was Aresti not performed?

Was the opposite direction roll allowable and considered an " -----" I really do not know what that would be called, and thus, the reason for my question. I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to the pilot, but let's say, it is the NATS, how would that be scored if it happens there?
Remember Cam, the benefit of a doubt goes to the piloit. I think people forget that a lot.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:53 AM
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Absolutely, I totally agree, but I am trying to figure out the proper way to have scored that.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:53 AM
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cam, as you describe it, the deduction would be 7 points or 1 pt per ten degrees of error, assuming that the error was not about 70 degrees, but very close or exactly 70. However.....judging is not that precise. One judge might see it as more error, one might see it as less. one or both judges might find fault with other elements of the figure - in which case it is easy to justify a zero or a five. there is no instant replay, no requirement that judge's score be the same and no method of measuring the error. In front of some judges, I could see this being a 7, or 6, or a 5, or a 4....right on down to a 0. that's the nature of judging.
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:05 AM
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cam, as you describe it, the deduction would be 7 points or 1 pt per ten degrees of error, assuming that the error was not about 70 degrees, but very close or exactly 70. However.....judging is not that precise. One judge might see it as more error, one might see it as less. one or both judges might find fault with other elements of the figure - in which case it is easy to justify a zero or a five. there is no instant replay, no requirement that judge's score be the same and no method of measuring the error. In front of some judges, I could see this being a 7, or 6, or a 5, or a 4....right on down to a 0. that's the nature of judging.


Good enough for me, I like your response, it is all in the eye of the beholder. And I should add, as long as you maintain that criteria for everyone else, then it is a wash.
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:28 AM
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Personally I have never liked the Nicknames for figures. In the heat of a competition flight I have seen, and experienced, too many times where people hear one thing, like 1/2-reverse Cuban 8" but forget what that means.

I prefer, and also always call, sequences so they describe what the pilot is to do. SO that 1/2-reverse becomes, Pull 45, center half roll up, pull 5/8ths inside loop back to level. No possibility of confusion.
It really depends on the pilot because everyone of them seems to need something different. A good caller will go over the sequence with the pilot before and make sure the terminology he uses is exactly what the pilot wants to hear. As a caller I think you also have to be aware enough to gauge how nervous the pilot is and what they may or may not need to hear at that time.

In my experience some pilots need a coach that tells them everything where other pilots need someone out there to lighten the mood and have fun with them.
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthobird View Post
How would you score this figure in a IMAC competition:

Figure calls for a hammerhead, 1/4 roll on the up and 2 of 8 on the down, exit same direction as entry, meaning, let's say, coming in from left to right into the hammer, you must exit from right to left.

the person did the 1/4 roll on way up, and did hammer well, on the down, the pilot rolled opposite direction, immediately corrected, then rolled 2 of 8 on down to correct exit. the "Wrong" roll was about 70 degrees

what would you score this?
If everything else was perfect, I would score a 7 point deduction for rolling the wrong way to start. However, this is where the judge needs to use "judgement", You could zero the maneuver if you felt he was attempting to do a 1/4 roll opposite some amount of rolls you could zero the maneuver.

This judgement call is often seen when doing point rolls let's say the guy is supposed to do a 1/4 roll and he stops 30 degrees short and then corrects. Did he stop short and get a 3 point deduction or did he think he was supposed to do a 2x8 and just miss on the point roll. As a judge if you think he did a 2x8 then you zero the maneuver, if you think he just stopped short on the quarter and then corrected then it is just a deduction.
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Old 04-05-2016, 11:20 AM
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he went to roll the opposite direction and not a 2 of 8, had he kept going, he would have exited the wrong direction and not done the 2 of 8. so in reality, he went down on the hammer, rolled 70 degrees in wrong direction, rolled 70 degrees back to correct, then did the 2 of 8, and he did exit in the right direction (right meaning, correct directions).


And I understand, hey, he tried and did all this pretty fast, but I caught it all!


ANd so did the scribe for the other judge. But again, I am not looking to get anyone in trouble, I am just trying to confirm that I did the right call or I am seeking to find out, what is the proper way to judge this. THis will not affect the outcome of the contest and it is not being questioned by anyone. It is only me, trying to make myself a better judge, and trying to learn from all of you, who have been doing this for X number of more years than me.
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Old 04-05-2016, 12:01 PM
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Would it be 1/2 point per 5 degree deduction ?
I'm starting this imac thing though so that's a guess.
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Old 04-05-2016, 12:10 PM
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yes, sir, for most angular or rotational deviations, it is 1/2 a point, or (0.5) points off for every 5 degrees, or, 1 full point off, for every 10 degrees.


Now, let's say you do a loop, if you change the radius of the loop, or, if you create a flat spot, it is one point off for each occurance.


If someone is doing basic, and the 1st figure is a full aileron roll, and the pilot has to do 360 degrees from wing level position, the pilot can chose to roll either right or left, but., let's say, the pilot rotates (rolls) the airplane 380 degrees, then that would be a 2 point deduction.


IF the pilot rotates the airplane 300 degrees, and stops, but then corrects it, that would be a 6 point deduction. No points are to be taken off for the correction, in this situation. That would be called double jeopardy if you did.
Additionally, if while you are doing the roll, the pilot changes the rate of the roll, from slow to fast, let's say, then that is a one point deduction per occurance.
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Old 04-05-2016, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzie View Post
Would it be 1/2 point per 5 degree deduction ?
I'm starting this imac thing though so that's a guess.
Many are not aware that this exists on the IMAC website under the DOWNLOADS Tab.

Hope it helps.
http://www.mini-iac.org/portals/0/do...eb41ad12f9.pdf

Wayne
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:42 PM
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Another interesting point people need to keep in mind is that you have to actually reach the nex full 5 degree point to get the next step of deduction.

So, 35 degrees gets a 3.5 point deduction. But so does 39 degrees, in fact, right up to 39.9999999999999999999 degrees is still 3.5 points. It is not until you reach 40 degrees that you would lose the next 1/2 point and receive a 4 point deduction.

Back on topic this situation is also similar to spin entries. If a wing starts to drop under stalled conditions say to the right side and the pilot corrects the spin direction to the left it is NOT a zero as if often thought. It is simply the same 0.5 points per 5 degrees deviation So if the right wing drops 15 degrees before the spin starts to the left it is a 1.5 point loss, not a zero.

People commonly think this is a "forced entry" . What used to be called a "forced entry" was really nothing more than essentially a snap roll into the spin.

Quote:
e. Starting the spin rotation in the wrong direction of rotation with a subsequent correction that forces the aircraft into the proper direction of rotation is to be penalized.

Rotation movement in the incorrect direction is to be downgraded at .5 point for each 5 degrees of incorrect rotation.
BTW - that 1/2 point per 5 degrees was a hell of a nice rule refinement
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:08 PM
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Judge: I downgraded your spin because I saw a 40 degree error at the exit.

Pilot: well according to my telemetry it was 39.7 degrees. You owe me a point.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FGNewbie View Post
Judge: I downgraded your spin because I saw a 40 degree error at the exit.

Pilot: well according to my telemetry it was 39.7 degrees. You owe me a point.
Half point nimrod
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