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Old 05-09-2017, 09:18 PM
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Good points Wayne. Yes, save the plane FIRST. Being two of the three listed above as well as an intermediate pilot, I prefer to push when exiting the box inverted from a roller. As Wingwall mentioned, it come up at a contest recently we were both attending. More so a discussion point in preparing to go to worlds or nats and not building habits that will cost you a sequence.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:27 AM
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At the field where I practice in Florida, we have lost two (2) planes practicing the 90 degree rolling turn on exit.
Ted Hausner 2015, Don Martin 2016. 3m H9 Sukhoi and a 35% H9 Extra.
I will urge the CD's at our events to wave the exit rule.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:04 AM
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Thank you Wayne, couldn't have stated it better.
t
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:21 AM
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why not just fly the alternate sequence?

also, it would seem more prudent that rather than the gymnastics of the rules change, the BOD simply amend the sequence. sequence design should be more or less neutral with respect to aircraft size - but when a sequence has a clear bias to larger aircraft because of placement relative to the pilot, that should raise a concern.

if memory serves me right, a rules proposal to correct a potential injury can be fast tracked for obvious reasons. however, in this case, while there might be a safety argument to be made, it is not an inherent and unavoidable situation. it is simply the result of how the sequence was written. that being the case, we are back to number 2, of simply making a change and the rules change question becomes moot.
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Old 05-10-2017, 09:46 AM
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I am thinking that the rules change should be made. I heard that we were trying to get the rules clarified for inverted maneuvers as the rules do not currently prohibit doing things inverted, its the common agreement that the clause about nothing that can be seen as practice that the consensus is derived from. (My limited understanding if I am wrong please correct me)

If there is ever a time where the plane is flying in the Y axis inverted and the sequence ends, all of the legal turnaround maneuvers should be legal both inverted and upright. The first maneuver should be such that the airplane resumes upright flight as soon as possible. After upright flight is achieved only upright turnaround maneuvers should be allowed.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:01 AM
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The 90 degree Rolling Turn, like it's advanced version, "The Rolling Turn" has become somewhat of a problem in it'self. There have been at least two fields lost in the N.E. Region over the last few years due to "fly overs" and of coarse the roller is the worst offender in that respect. The fact that we now have an alternative sequence clearly speaks to the issue.
In my opinion, the 90 degree roller is worse in this respect than the multiple turn Roller. When you add the legal exit maneuver, it can be even more far reaching.
As for now however, we have it to live with and as long as you have the full Roller in the Advance and Unlimited classes, you need the 90 degree Rolling Turn in the Intermediate class as a transitioning element into the Advance Class.
Ultimately, we need to convert the currant Roller from an X and Y maneuver to a Z axis maneuver or replace it altogether.
In the mean time I would urge the CD of your event to either use the alternate sequence or wave
the exiting maneuver requirement for this Aresti maneuver.
Let's replace it with a one turn inside or outside Loop. How kool would that be?
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flybye Steve View Post
At the field where I practice in Florida, we have lost two (2) planes practicing the 90 degree rolling turn on exit.
Ted Hausner 2015, Don Martin 2016. 3m H9 Sukhoi and a 35% H9 Extra.
I will urge the CD's at our events to wave the exit rule.
Hey steve wish I could have been there for the contest! I can't believe this is an issue though... the CD has the authority to give the OK... also on the note of a sequence ending inverted it never says that you SHALL perform an imidiate half roll to upright... it is just on the list of options... I would say the half loop like you are doing would be acceptable... unless the rules say you SHALL perform a half roll after exiting the box it just kind of leaves the option on the table... again everyone has there own way of reading the rules
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Carruthers43 View Post
Hey steve wish I could have been there for the contest! I can't believe this is an issue though... the CD has the authority to give the OK... also on the note of a sequence ending inverted it never says that you SHALL perform an imidiate half roll to upright... it is just on the list of options... I would say the half loop like you are doing would be acceptable... unless the rules say you SHALL perform a half roll after exiting the box it just kind of leaves the option on the table... again everyone has there own way of reading the rules
Again, directly from the head IMAC judge, after exiting a sequence inverted the only allowable maneuver is an immediate half roll to get back to upright. After that you can perform any of the allowable positioning maneuvers in the IMAC rule book.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:40 AM
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A CD can make necessary changes. His only responsibility is ensuring the announcement reaches all impacted and that the rules change is made without bias.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Warwix View Post
Again, directly from the head IMAC judge, after exiting a sequence inverted the only allowable maneuver is an immediate half roll to get back to upright. After that you can perform any of the allowable positioning maneuvers in the IMAC rule book.
In the head judges opinion... that is not the letter of the rule though.. if that is how they want it, it should be written as such

"If a sequence ends inverted the first maneuver following exiting the box SHALL be an immediate half roll to upright"
Very simple the rules do not state that therefore they can not enforce it as such
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
13.5.
Prior to entering the aerobatic airspace, between sequences, and prior to
landing, pilots shall only be allowed to perform the following trim and
positioning maneuvers:
Academy of Model Aeronautics
Competition Regulations | Radio Control Scale Aerobatics 9
• Turns;
• Half Cuban with only a single ½ roll on the 45 down line, and Reverse
Half Cuban with only a single ½ roll on the 45 up line:
The ½ roll is optional based on aircraft positioning required to
enter the aerobatic airspace:
• Half loops up or down (Immelmann or Split S) with only one half roll on
entry or exit;
• Single half roll to inverted immediately prior to entering the aerobatic
airspace for the case in which an inverted entry to the first maneuver is
required;
• Single half roll to upright immediately after exiting the aerobatic
airspace for the case in which an inverted exit from the last maneuver is
required;
• A vertical up or down line with a simple push/pull for entry and exit. A
single 1/2 roll is allowed on this vertical line only if required to orient the
aircraft properly for entry to the first maneuver.
Exceptions to this limitation may only be directed by the CD or line boss
in the normal course of safely managing the airspace. Pilots will follow
such directions and no penalty will apply.
Turnaround maneuvers may not be performed at low altitude or directly in
front of the judges. No other aerobatic maneuvers are allowed
immediately following the airplane breaking ground. An illegal maneuver
performed before entering a sequence will result in zeroing the following
sequence. An illegal maneuver prior to landing will result in zeroing the
preceding sequence. Except for the Four Minute Freestyle.
The intent here is to prevent anything that may be viewed as “practice”
and hence give one competitor an advantage over another. Therefore,
snaps, spins, point rolls, Humpty’s, Tailslides, etc, etc.... may never be
executed after breaking ground and before entering the sequence between,sequences or after completing the sequence(s) and prior to landing.


The last paragraph is where the no inverted flight is derived from to my understanding.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith Cannon View Post
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The last paragraph is where the no inverted flight is derived from to my understanding.
I believe you are correct it is just so vague it leaves too much up for interpretation... like in fly by steves question, he isn't flying inverted just trying to safely reposition the aircraft with what is technically a legal maneuver... this is my issue with the rules and the way people read them... he is simply performing a half Cuban... which is legal! The airplane is already headed away at a high rate of speed and the extra half roll could jeperdise the vision of the airplane... it is just one of the issues that has never been resolved... they need to fix the rule book if they want everyone to immidately roll upright and NOTHING else
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:52 PM
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Yep, I agree it needs more clarity and they are actually in the process of rewording this area to make it crystal clear. But until that point we are forced to follow the rules as they are written AND interpreted by the folks in charge starting with the chief judge.

As far as pushing a 1/2 or 5/8s loop, that is an outside maneuver that is not legal according to the rules. A half cuban/reverse half cuban/immelmann/split S officially start upright. If you push anything after exiting the sequence, unless allowed by the CD for that contest, the sequence should be zeroed.

Also, once the final maneuver of the sequence is complete there is no need to draw a line, in the same way there is no need to call out of the box. In this case, once you are wings level inverted heading cross box, the judging is over and you can immediately roll to upright and start repositioning for the second sequence/landing.
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Last edited by Warwix; 05-10-2017 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Changed round to sequence
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Old 05-10-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warwix View Post
Yep, I agree it needs more clarity and they are actually in the process of rewording this area to make it crystal clear. But until that point we are forced to follow the rules as they are written AND interpreted by the folks in charge starting with the chief judge.

As far as pushing a 1/2 or 5/8s loop, that is an outside maneuver that is not legal according to the rules. A half cuban/reverse half cuban/immelmann/split S officially start upright. If you push anything after exiting the sequence, unless allowed by the CD for that contest, the round should be zeroed.

Also, once the final maneuver of the sequence is complete there is no need to draw a line, in the same way there is no need to call out of the box. In this case, once you are wings level inverted heading cross box, the judging is over and you can immediately roll to upright and start repositioning for the second sequence/landing.
Should be changed to "sequence." This rule became effective on Jan 1st, 2017.
Wayne
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:06 PM
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My mistake, I meant to put round. Thanks for catching that.
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