Originally Posted by TazmanianDevil

we still must give the benefit of a doubt.

Absolutely...Knowledge and experience help to gain confidence and eliminate doubt.

Originally Posted by TazmanianDevil

No matter what you do or what are your standards, be consistent.

I understand the sentiment, but disagree. If a judge is consistently applying the rules incorrectly, how is that fair to the pilot who practices and flies by the book?

The British full scale training website uses a graphic to illustrate what a snap roll (flick roll in their language) should encompass. Observe what is expected.....If you are interested in learning more take a look here:
FLICK ROLLS (British full scale website)
Please remember, that the deduction is different in full scale as compared to Scale Aerobatics. They deduct 1 point per 5° while we deduct ½ point per 5°
Wayne

Just in case there is any confusion, here is the rule I am referencing from our book:

f. Autorotation, once initiated, must be maintained to the prescribed finish point of the snap roll.
Coming out of autorotation early and aileroning to the end of the snap is a common error. In this case, a downgrade of 0.5 points for each 5 degrees is to be applied for the amount of rotation remaining at the point the autorotation ends, i.e., for however much the pilot ailerons to the finish. If the autorotation ends with more than 90 degrees of rotation remaining, even if the roll is completed with aileron, the snap roll is to be zeroed.
g. Alignment during the snap will vary from the prescribed line of flight due to the yaw displacement that is characteristic of a proper snap.
This variation may be very small. However, immediately on completion of autorotation, the aircraft must be realigned with the prescribed line of flight. This will put the aircraft on a parallel but offset line or arc from that being flown prior to entry to the snap. If the aircraft exit from the snap is a line or arc that is identical to the entry line this is a clue that a proper snap was not executed. Again, the offset of the snap exit line or arc from snap entry line or arc may be very small but should be there. No penalty is to be applied for the offset or the realignment of the aircraft immediately after autorotation is completed. Lacking that realignment the extension of the snap exit line will be misaligned and that shall be downgraded at 0.5 for each 5 degrees of misalignment from the prescribed line of flight in pitch, roll and yaw. “Line of flight” as just used here includes arcs.

Does anyone know

what is difference between snaps in advanced and Unlimited?

meaning, which are allowed (or I should say, which are seen on Aresti) ?

In Advanced,
we can do:

1.5 turn pos and negative snaps on level flight and on a 45 degree up

full snaps on upline, downline, horizontal flight, and 45 degree flight

1/2 snaps on horizontal flight

3/4 snaps on upline

1 & 1/4 snap on downline


which snaps are done in Unlimited that are not done in Advanced??

Pretty much anything up to 2 although you would never have a snap from knife to knife...at least I have never seen it.

Originally Posted by kwilson

Absolutely...Knowledge and experience help to gain confidence and eliminate doubt.



I understand the sentiment, but disagree. If a judge is consistently applying the rules incorrectly, how is that fair to the pilot who practices and flies by the book?

From my experience, consistency is a regulator to our human mistakes.
Not every IMAC pilot has all the knowledge the rule book has and if he does he still needs to be experienced with it, he wont be a great judge over night after his first, second and even third judging school, that is why he must be consistent and autodidact at the same time.
He needs to have open mined so he wont professionalize his mistakes as a judge and as a pilot.

Originally Posted by kwilson

Pretty much anything up to 2 although you would never have a snap from knife to knife...at least I have never seen it.

Is this done in unlimited?

Yes. From 1/2 to 2 full.

Originally Posted by kwilson

Yes. From 1/2 to 2 full.

ok, thank you so much for replying. SO this is something I should practice doing as an Advanced Pilot. Good to know!

Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I recommend that no matter which class you fly, that you practice the unknowns of the next class up. This will help a great deal with unknowns at the contest.

Originally Posted by orthobird

ok, thank you so much for replying. SO this is something I should practice doing as an Advanced Pilot. Good to know!

Hey Cam..... Kevin is correct, for the Advanced class, you won't see a roll combination of more than 720° on horizontal lines & 45° lines, and a maximum of 540° (1½) on vertical lines.

In Unlimited, however, the limitations are higher and in actual fact (although unlikely) on horizontal lines there could technically be
2 snaps to the right, with 2 opposite snaps (left) written into a horizontal line.

For Unknowns in Unlimited, there are restrictions of 1080° (3 rolls total combinations) on 45° up lines and also verticals..... For downlines and down 45°, the combination maximum is at 900° (2½ rolls). This is for Unknowns.

The rules get progressively harder for sequence writers as they have to pay attention to these details when constructing sequences for the higher classes.
Wayne

As member of the IMAC Sequence Committee we have used a document called the "Known Matrix" since 2002. This is a high level guide to the type geometry, rolls, point rolls, spins, snap rolls, double rolls, and rolling turns allowed for each class. From time to time since its creation we have updated what is allowed, but these have been few and very minor changes or clarifications.
From this Matrix, the highly detailed Unkown Catalogs are created, because an Unknown has not been flown before, what is allowed is basically a subset of what is allowed in a Known. So what might be allowed for a Known might not be legal for an Unknown. The basis for this is that an Known is flown all year so the pilot has practiced the figures.

Tom

Thank you Tom and Wayne. Unbeknown to me, I have in my possession the Advanced and Unlimited Aresti catalog which depicts and answers my question. This was brought to my attention just now by Ty.

Thank you very much Ty

You daman

We are not allowed to show this being that the catalog is copyright protected.

I would encourage anyone who does not have them to purchase them from Spain.

Very cheap. And you will receive within 2 to 3 weeks

Tom, does that chart apply to unknowns also?

My bad

You answered this already

Originally Posted by TazmanianDevil

From my experience, consistency is a regulator to our human mistakes.
Not every IMAC pilot has all the knowledge the rule book has and if he does he still needs to be experienced with it, he wont be a great judge over night after his first, second and even third judging school, that is why he must be consistent and autodidact at the same time.
He needs to have open mined so he wont professionalize his mistakes as a judge and as a pilot.

Agree. In my experience if a judge is consistent with what he/she knows after a judging school or two, the top pilots will still come out on top, even if he/she is not scoring as low as a very experienced judge.