Originally Posted by Judge

Since you bring this up so often why not start flying IMAC, get involved and work to change it? Standing on the outside looking in nobody will listen to you. Or get F3M going here. It is pattern with scale planes, which seems to be what you are looking for.

When I retire and have time... I will.... I am too busy now....

I only have time to post meaningless messages on the subject that no one agrees with!!

Originally Posted by dwalk

Hi,

I'm based in Levin and fly at the LMAC, and have been flying RC planes for about 18 months or so. To improve my flying, and because i like the idea of precision aerobatics ( the only person you are competing against is yourself), I'd like to start flying in the sportsman IMAC/Pattern class.

I am flying an extra 330L, powered by a 90 fourstr!oke. It flies well enough, just limited by my thumbs

Is there anyone in the lower north island who is willing to give me tips, coaching and or demonstrations ?

Cheers.

David Walker

Hi David
Have only just noticed your post. Good to hear you are interested in aerobatics. I live in Wellington and fly at the WRF field out of Featherston. I am flying in the Intermediate class at the moment. Dominic another club member flys Sportsman. You would be welcome to come and fly with us but of course its quite a long way from you.
You should join the NZRCAA and get the newsletter. It would be great if you could come to our next comp at Norsewood on the 2-3 October. This will be well attended and someone will be assigned to you for any assistance and advise you might need. Accomodation can also be organised for you. I will PM my Email to you so we can keep in touch.

GREAT THREAD!!!! I'm gonna start IMAC next year too. Should be fun!!!

Originally Posted by Rod

Hi David
Have only just noticed your post. Good to hear you are interested in aerobatics. I live in Wellington and fly at the WRF field out of Featherston. I am flying in the Intermediate class at the moment. Dominic another club member flys Sportsman. You would be welcome to come and fly with us but of course its quite a long way from you.
You should join the NZRCAA and get the newsletter. It would be great if you could come to our next comp at Norsewood on the 2-3 October. This will be well attended and someone will be assigned to you for any assistance and advise you might need. Accomodation can also be organised for you. I will PM my Email to you so we can keep in touch.

Rod,

That comp on the 2nd and 3rd of Oct sounds good, i'm aiming to be there. Which classes will be flown? Imac or Pattern? I'd better get a copy of the Basic/ sportsman schedules, and try my best to learn to fly it. Accommodation will need a bit of thought,

Will keep in touch,

David

Originally Posted by dwalk

Rod,

That comp on the 2nd and 3rd of Oct sounds good, i'm aiming to be there. Which classes will be flown? Imac or Pattern? I'd better get a copy of the Basic/ sportsman schedules, and try my best to learn to fly it. Accommodation will need a bit of thought,

Will keep in touch,

David

Hi David
This will be a IMAC comp. I suggest you focus on basic for your first comp as basic sportsman and intermediate are pretty competitive and now advanced is looking like it will be a serious tussel. Don't worry about the accomodation, that can be sorted once we have committed pilots.

Being here I'm sure you have seen http://www.nzrcaa.co.nz. That's the place to start.

Originally Posted by mikeymikeymikey

Being here I'm sure you have seen http://www.nzrcaa.co.nz. That's the place to start.

Last update was last year! Not that I mind, but here is interactive. Maybe just put a sticky up the top for comp dates.

Hi David,

There a several of us that fly aerobatic models just down the road at road at Kapiti that would be happy to have you visit us and to help you out. Have also sent you contact details if you want to follow up

The aerobatic comps are a good way to develop your flying skills

Cheers

Originally Posted by Judge

Bad news. In IMAC there is no such thing as a slow roll. There are no scoring criteria associated with the absolute roll rate. Pattern has a slow roll (3 second minimum) in Advanced and above. So while I admire the goal, it is something that will not be required in IMAC.

As you say there is no criteria for the roll rate but as a judge the slow roll executed properly will get a higher score from me than a fast roll done equally as well. Why? because the slow roll is much harder to execute. One must remember that a slow roll has much more potential for down grades if not executed well, it can become a train wreck quickly as compared to the fast roll. Risk equals potential rewards, pick your poison.

Originally Posted by sherman89

As you say there is no criteria for the roll rate but as a judge the slow roll executed properly will get a higher score from me than a fast roll done equally as well. Why? because the slow roll is much harder to execute. One must remember that a slow roll has much more potential for down grades if not executed well, it can become a train wreck quickly as compared to the fast roll. Risk equals potential rewards, pick your poison.

Please share with us where that should be scored as you state.

There is NO, NONE, NADA, etc criteria for roll rate, size of radius, etc, etc, etc. anywhere in the rule book.

ANDIT SHOULD NOT BE A CONSIDERATION WHEN JUDGING ANY MANEUVER.

Originally Posted by KnowCrashes

Please share with us where that should be scored as you state.

There is NO, NONE, NADA, etc criteria for roll rate, size of radius, etc, etc, etc. anywhere in the rule book.

ANDIT SHOULD NOT BE A CONSIDERATION WHEN JUDGING ANY MANEUVER.

I guess we can also discuss fast snaps compared to slow snaps as well. My slow roll always brings in a higher score compared to my fast roll when each was done correctly so I am not the only one out there that scores a well executed slow roll compared to a fast roll. I agree that there is no criteria but since the slow roll is more difficult to do it will bring a higher score when executed properly. Now does the risk equal the reward, in most cases it is NO because the difference in the score may only be 1 or 2 points and the risk for a low score if not a 0 is high because an error is easily seen and deductions are made. This the roll as in the #1 maneuver for the Basic sequence only.

Originally Posted by KnowCrashes

Please share with us where that should be scored as you state.

There is NO, NONE, NADA, etc criteria for roll rate, size of radius, etc, etc, etc. anywhere in the rule book.

ANDIT SHOULD NOT BE A CONSIDERATION WHEN JUDGING ANY MANEUVER.

In regards to radius, if the maneuver gets too big and the footprint is excessively large (the plane is constantly flying from one zip code to another) the ASC score goes in the crapper as does it go down if the radius is consistently too small and the sequence is rushed.

Originally Posted by sherman89

As you say there is no criteria for the roll rate but as a judge the slow roll executed properly will get a higher score from me than a fast roll done equally as well.

If it does then the judges are not following the criteria.

One must remember that a slow roll has much more potential for down grades if not executed well, it can become a train wreck quickly as compared to the fast roll. Risk equals potential rewards, pick your poison.

No, one must remember that there is no criteria for roll rate, other than it be constant, in a roll and any judge who applies such a non-existent criteria should be removed from judging until they learn this basic rule.

sherman, don't confuse what looks good to the absolute critieria of the rules. judges are supposed to follow the rules. remember that IMAC rules are derived from full scale, and in full scale a roll is bang the stick maneuver. What the FAI calls a "slow roll" is just a roll, and how fast it is executed is not important. snaps fall under a different criteria, so don't confuse the two. Nowhere in the judging material will you find any nonsense about difficulty somehow translating into higher scores. Figures are weighted using K factors, and while there is some disagreement as to whether K factors are a good representation, they are objective. When you get into the very hazy area of what looks good, judging becomes subjective, and contestants don't want to drive hundreds of miles to face biased judging. It's really frustrating to ask a judge to explain a score and get some answer that you know is just wrong, but the judge is a friend of the CD and the judge is a pattern, full scale IAC judge, and/or pilot...blah blah. When I was CDing and judge couldn't justify a score, it became a 10. You owe it to yourself and the rest of the community to learn the rules and what elements of flying are and are not considered in determining a score. Nothing is served by coming on this forum and perpetuating myths.

Originally Posted by FGNewbie

sherman, don't confuse what looks good to the absolute critieria of the rules. judges are supposed to follow the rules. remember that IMAC rules are derived from full scale, and in full scale a roll is bang the stick maneuver. What the FAI calls a "slow roll" is just a roll, and how fast it is executed is not important. snaps fall under a different criteria, so don't confuse the two. Nowhere in the judging material will you find any nonsense about difficulty somehow translating into higher scores. Figures are weighted using K factors, and while there is some disagreement as to whether K factors are a good representation, they are objective. When you get into the very hazy area of what looks good, judging becomes subjective, and contestants don't want to drive hundreds of miles to face biased judging. It's really frustrating to ask a judge to explain a score and get some answer that you know is just wrong, but the judge is a friend of the CD and the judge is a pattern, full scale IAC judge, and/or pilot...blah blah. When I was CDing and judge couldn't justify a score, it became a 10. You owe it to yourself and the rest of the community to learn the rules and what elements of flying are and are not considered in determining a score. Nothing is served by coming on this forum and perpetuating myths.

I am glad to see the discussion has created some reaction to the topic, as we all know judging is very subjective and as we try to follow the rules we as judges do the best we can but no 2 judges seem to agree absolutely on any one maneuver as the scores vary a few points at a time. One judge may see something that the other judge may have missed. When we get into spins and snaps things really become difficult at times. I have discussed this topic with several Nat level judges and they all agree that there is no criteria for the roll other than a constant roll rate but most did say that a slow roll done correctly in the basic sequence would probably earn an extra point or 2.