Originally Posted by Flybye Steve

Hey Vern, that is a great response. It's refreshing to hear one of our vendors own up to
issues with their products. In the long haul I believe your customers will respect your position and the fact that you continue to strive for perfection.
I found one of my broken axles and it looks just like the one shown above.
In the overall scheme of things, I'm wondering
how much effect the difference between steel
and Ti axles really matters on a 40-42% plane.
This becomes a more serious question when you consider the possible damage that can occur to your plane from an axle failure.
The design of your axle is a good one Vern.
You may want to consider offering the steel version for the giant scale planes.

Bingo...
Exactly my thoughts ...

Unfortunately, a lot of what makes a product sell well has more to do with "bling" than fact and my products are a classic example. I think a significant percentage of my axles are purchased because they are made from titanium. I can easily make steel axles but where's the "bling" in steel

The price that will be paid for steel over titanium will be a little less than one ounce per pair and they will rust. While they will be stronger they will still be breakable. If we want to get really strong we go to 1/2" diameter titanium tubing pressed into an aluminum threaded fitting with the attachment threads on it. Probably two hundred bucks a pair but still much lighter then steel. How may of these do you think I would sell? Another point is the old weakest link in the chain adage. The tubular axle would be indestructible, moving the weakest link to the gear leg or the bottom of the airplane.

As usual, there is no free lunch. When time permits I'll make up some steel axles, at the moment I'm busy building a Van RV-10

If you buy something that is "high performance" and in this case high performance is light weight then you expect to have failures and maintenance. Pretty much everyone here imo knows this and that's why no one makes a big deal out of it. Things wear out. You spend $50 a servo to have the gears replaced after a few years and probably about replace your axels regardless of brand.

Top fuel drag cars rebuild engines all the time because they use light under built components to get the most out of an engine with little weight penalty. They work fine for a few races but won't last a season.

Vern, I love your stuff and anytime I need gs items you sell I go to you. Your tailwheels are amazing! Keep up the good work!

When you think about it nobody came close to bashing or making disparaging remarks about the axles or White Rose, it was an amazingly scholarly (if I may use the term) discussion. I'm sure the moderators would love it if all topics relating to component failures were conducted as this one has been. I didn't count the contributors but a lot of people showed what I call professionalism.

Believe me, I appreciate it and will have steel axles on the market by mid summer. Should I chrome them to replace the lost "bling"

Originally Posted by Vern Smith

When you think about it nobody came close to bashing or making disparaging remarks about the axles or White Rose, it was an amazingly scholarly (if I may use the term) discussion. I'm sure the moderators would love it if all topics relating to component failures were conducted as this one has been. I didn't count the contributors but a lot of people showed what I call professionalism.

Believe me, I appreciate it and will have steel axles on the market by mid summer. Should I chrome them to replace the lost "bling"

Oh, , and let me also say that I own two pair of your wheels, and several direct drive tail wheels and love them. ;-)

Interesting read. I've been building some fishing rods and you can buy guides that are stainless steel (SS316) PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition) TiCH coated. Maybe WR can look into that idea. Stainless Steel is a bit lighter than steel, and when PVD plated, I'd imagine it would toughen it up a little, and can add even more bling - like colors... just sharing some thoughts.

Its just a simple ductile overload fracture of the material. Big planes small axles. Mine went thru a lot of one wheel landings, gopher mounds, and lots of miles bouncing in the trailer before it let go.

I would put a full radius on it and have a collar with a chamfered ID to accommodate it.

Originally Posted by ghoffman

I would put a full radius on it and have a collar with a chamfered ID to accommodate it.

I'm reluctant to do that because it will force the wheel location further from the gear leg. I cannot shorten the existing flange length without making it impossible to get a 7/16 wrench on the wrench flats. Certainly doable but far from optimal.

Its breaking at the beginning of the radius that is there.. You would need to use a microscope to see the initiation point but i think it is simply fatigue stress at the point with the smallest cross section and highest load which is right wher the radius ends.. This is also the point that could be problemstic during any heat treatment process due to the large change in cross section.. In the end They are simply overloaded.. Putting on a collar that close to the inner end could actually cause more problems as tightening the set screw could create an initiation point for failure/crack growth. A bette solution would be to make a stepped axle with it larger towards the landing gear. This would be less machining but would require the wheels to have different size bearings. Easy with say kavan style hubs..

When developing, producing and marketing a product, end user price is the most critical. While there are no-cost-is-too-high buyers, the vast majority look at the $. Changing design and production protocols- time, tooling, set up, prototyping, testing, advertising, on and on,- always costs money with the plan/hope it will work to the advantage of both producer and buyer. All of the mentioned suggestions fall into the above.
All materials have drawbacks, only showing up, most often, after the finished product is in use for varying lengths of time. Too many variables to list.
Ti is a case in point- can be brittle, will fail if scratch or groove is in a critical point. A tooling mark, file mark, and as mentioned set screw, can cause it. Anything that "breaks" the machined surface can be a failure point if subjected to bending loads, vibration, Etc.
If weight and exoticism is the driving force, Ti, with its drawbacks, is the way to go.
In my opinion, and that is all it is based on my use, more durability and bling can be had with SS, What are the drawbacks? Galls and work hardens quickly. Some grades are soft, contrary to popular belief because when bent, worked or drilled it work hardens almost as fast as you can blink due to heat build up. If drilling do it quickly with lube and sharp bit. The plus side, it polishes to a high luster. I used large amounts of 303, 304 SS to replicate nickeled fittings when rebuilding antique fire engines. Once polished it's a done deal. 303, 304(18-8), 316 are the most common, but other SS alloys are available if you can stand the $ cost. 316 is industry and food standard for the most part- strength, hardness, ductility, corrosion resistance, etc.- As I mentioned in another post, you always go with the specs- application, durability, finish quality and the handling of the finished product.
WR has quality products and, I'm sure, will make a decision based on what engineering/production protocols they can live with to ease the chance of failure. Zero failure rate is desired, but seldom accomplished. NASA a case in point. It all comes down to the cost of supplying the desired product.
I'm no metallurgist, but have migrated to what works for me after fabricating parts using many different materials. In short, I use the easiest stuff to accomplish the end result.

Originally Posted by Vern Smith

I'm reluctant to do that because it will force the wheel location further from the gear leg. I cannot shorten the existing flange length without making it impossible to get a 7/16 wrench on the wrench flats. Certainly doable but far from optimal.

I use ignition wrenches and tappet wrenches for those very narrow, "reach in" spaces. Craftsman may still make them. May be an option for that application.

Steel rusts.

Originally Posted by Vern Smith

When you think about it nobody came close to bashing or making disparaging remarks about the axles or White Rose, it was an amazingly scholarly (if I may use the term) discussion. I'm sure the moderators would love it if all topics relating to component failures were conducted as this one has been. I didn't count the contributors but a lot of people showed what I call professionalism.

Believe me, I appreciate it and will have steel axles on the market by mid summer. Should I chrome them to replace the lost "bling"

Anodized in various colors. Just kidding! Love your products.

Hi Vern, here's something to think about. I'm in the process of doing this for myself and I think others would be interested.
Preventing damage to wheel pants is an on going issue and having the axle extending out through the outer part of the wheel pant helps to strengthen the structure and minimize damage.
If you make the steel axle long enough to go through the outer side of the wheel pant, I would like to see an aluminum "flange" that would fit over the axle on the outside of the wheel pant. The flange would have a couple of holes to attach it to the outside of the wheel pant with a couple of small screws. The flange could be anodized and offered in different colors. This would strengthen the wheel pant and-
Talk about Bling?