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Old 06-21-2008, 11:44 AM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

What most of us fail to acknowledge is that Obama is not on a mission to the White House. If he were, we wouldn't have seen the blunders that we have in the past year. He was hand-picked by the Hillary haters in the Democratic Party. They've used his face, his color, and his comfort in front of a microphone to gather millions of people together. It's those people that I'm most concerned about.

Who was Barak Obama 4 years ago? A complete unknown on the national political scene, probably even in the State of Illinois. He's been fast-tracked by a Party that needed a face without a checkered past to rally around.

Why do you think he opted out of the Presidential Campaign Fund earlier this week? Accepting the public funding also comes with some reasonable caps on independant contributions, require disclosure, and other controls that at least in theory keep the candidates beholden to the Office, not the special interests. He's publically stated this week, in effect, that these controls, even the idea of them, is insignificant to him. We'll never know who's writing the biggest checks, not until after he's elected (if he is) and the favors begin to be paid back.

That's what everyone is afraid of. Right now, the only "mud" to gather on him is the scare of a muslim background, his less than "American" name, some blatently incorrect social practices ("Sweety"), and other quirks that individually mean nothing. What this candidate has NOT presented is his FORMAL stance on anything. To know that he's made it as far as he has without any track record of accomplishment or firm plans for the future should be a critical concern for every voter, regardless of their part affiliation.

Oh, he'll come out of the convention with a "platform", but how has he gotten this far without one? I'll tell you how.. the controling interests in his party have spent the money to spin a campaign to put him where he is today. The only real competition he ever had (Hillary) had a tremendous "hater" contingency in the party, so all the Party had to do was fan those flames just a little, and the money (votes) started flowing his direction. John Edwards, Bill Richardson and the others were along for the ride, and with their friendly retreat, they'll be rewarded with key cabinet positions, maybe a VP spot for one.

Kiwi, you are absolutely correct that the Republican side of the race is weak at best. I don't think a single viable candidate surfaces this time around because everyone was expecting a Democrat to take the White House. Nobody wants to run in four years having to first explain why they couldn't win this time around. McCain is one of the old guard, and that doesn't spell prosperity for the masses if he makes it to the Office.

Its going to be an interesting Summer/Fall season this year, and we'll have to make the best of whatever we hand ourselves next January.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:58 AM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Here's a conundrum for you all. If the population of the USA is 4% gay (using Kris W's figures) how in gods name do they get such an audience in the media and politically. 48% cant be heard in an election but 4% get front page headlines year in, year out. Ever wondered how we let this happen.

The answer... you mentioned it.. headlines! No one will tune in to the news or buy a weekly news magazine if the headline talks about the American Heritage Parade scheduled for July 4th on the County square. But put a gay pride parade on a side street in that same city, and they've got national media coverage.

The camera's eye, tells us a very narrow story, and its up to each of us to fill in the back and side grounds. Unfornunately, we usually assume that the sidelines are filled with the exact thing we see through the lens.

It's no different in Iraq today. The media shows us bloody victims, posts the names of dead soldiers, and even once showed pictures of Americans burning, hanging from a bridge. There are certainly some very dangerous areas that none of us would want to visit (my guess is that some reading these posts have), but the entire country is far different than the narrow perspective we're fed.

Who's going to tune in to see Iraqi women and children learning to read and write for the first time in generations? Nobody. Who cares about cities taking control back and beginning to get on with their lives? Nobody. This is no different than most of the skirmishes we've ventured into in the last 40 years... too "nice" to flatten the land and start fresh when the war begins, then handcuffed by the media in the attempts to finish the job that was started. To think that a country with our capabilties couldn't level the mountainsides of Afganistan just to make absolutely sure of of their goal, especially when that host country doesn't produce a drop of what the world economy is running on, is just inconceivable. If Afganistan isn't going to bring terrorism to justice, somebody must. It may not be the US, but soon, somebody will. Its just too big a threat to the world to let it fester any longer.
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Old 06-21-2008, 11:58 AM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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YeeHaaa,

I get number 1000#### I think.

OK I am in the throws of reading Mr Obama's book called the audacity of hope

One thing for certain is this guy is not, was not and cannot even be a Muslim. I see the hype where he went to a Muslim school in Indonesia. Try a Catholic college for a change.

Of course something I see as an outsider is the common use of fear in swaying American politics. Remember the big bad guy in Iraq with nukes and killing 60 prisoners a year for sport etc etc. The fact he was buying uranium from a rogue African state that had no Uranium to sell in the first place. It called fear tactics.

But both sides are as bad as each other. This is not a Bush or Democrat attribute. Its generic.

Perhaps one thing that is placing way too many countries in a rut badly these days is the true lack of choice. Both parties in the USA electoral system are so close to each other in terms of policy that it really makes very little difference who gets in.

What is critical this time for the USA is that you get a charismatic global leader. Not another peanut farmer or someone out to revenge daddies blunders.

Clinton for all his bad points was and is a world leader. Forget his policies internally and look at his power externally. That guy could lead, commanded ultra respect when ever he spoke and where ever he spoke.

The policy stuff comes from your lower house and the senate, not the president. He just signs the checks.

Bush has damaged the USA's reputation for the next 20 years, I'm sorry to say that but its true from an outsiders observation. It will take a miracle worker to clean up the mess he has left on the international front. Some of you will say so what, we are America and the world can take it or leave it. Stick it buddy, your dealing with uncle Sam.

Thats true but if that happens and oil all of a sudden is sweeter to sell in Euro's than Dollars, when the foreign countries who buy US debt to prop it up decide to call in the notes, guess who is going to find themselves between a big rock and hard place.

Your President is the most powerful man in the world today (other than the guys manipulating the oil crisis) Thats why I say you need a statesman this time because if you dont your going to find yourself in a 30 year hole.

Do you know that today the US economy could collapse totally and the rest of the world will keep rolling along like nothing has happened. Its not the 1930's any more. There are enough well developed and well managed economies elsewhere to soak up the over supply of goods and food when the US cant afford to buy it any more.
Couldn't agree more. The one thing I have to hand the Bush administration is that they have been masterful at the art of striking fear in the American public when they need to. Code yellow, orange, green, red...the wind gets over 20kts in the gulf and oil goes through the roof "Breaking news" on the major networks, Iraq is a direct threat to the USA, the list is long. Fear, its a very powerful tool! There are still people out there that think 9-11 was the reason why we went into Iraq, come on!!

In my line of work I travel all over the world and get to watch a lot of news from a completely different perspective, Kiwi is right, the Bush administration has been devastating to our reputation around the world and it will take some considerable time to get it back.

Is Obama the answer, I don't know. Is McCain the answer, I don't know. One of these two men will be President and they will be faced with huge problems that need leadership, the willingness to depart from the way we've been going, and the ability to say this isn't working and its got to change.

Airplane stuff: Kiwi, how do I get a list of R/C clubs in New Zealand?
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:05 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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thanks dk!!! enjoy your afternoon!

Rmaia... there was and is no personal offense by me not agreeing with your FREE health care point. i just want to know who pays for it to make it free? if what you suggest happens... pay only up to 1/2 your months wages... somebody still picks up the rest... that is SOCIALISM! scary stuff. health care is a business and if there isn't great money in it, the specialists we have would go do something else entirely. it's unfortunate but true. we would sacrafice TONS of areas with a FREE health care policy. we can't let the government control our dollars like that. I definitely do NOT have all the anwers, but i do know that nothing is FREE! it is paid for by all of us that already pay health insurance for ourselves and our employees. how can us double paying be free (or right for that matter!)

i certainly feel for your acquaintance and their family situation....i think that payment plans should be installed here. if it were "free", the payment plans would still be installed, WE would just make the payments!

again, no animosity. i am just constantly living in fear realizing that i am not the sole controller of my checkbook! i don't want your money... i didn't earn it and therefore i don't deserve it!
Don't worry, no personal offense taken!! It's all good.

Yep, I will have to agree with you that a totally free healthcare system isn't the best thing. However, I still believe that there should be cap on some of the fees applyable to real life-saving cases. Routine stuff, like consults and minor treatments should be paid for, to help in covering up the costs of those more serious cases. It would work more or less like an insurance system, where the payments of everyone who doesn't require the insurance to be paid is used to pay the cases where it's needed (and make some money for the insurance company as well)...

Well, in the end, what I believe the government should do is help indirectly, by lowering the overall costs for healthcare, covering up a major part of the med-school courses tuition (so no student loans would be required), exempting hospitals from taxes and utility bills (water, electricity, land area tax, income tax and so on) as well as exempting from taxes all the hospital equipments and tools. I figure these measures would already help a nice deal in making things more affordable. There would still be money to be made, but instead of having a 100 cost, plus a 50 profit, you could have a 50 cost plus a 50 profit...
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:08 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Rmaia....

i absolely love the saying in your signature!!!!!!!!!! it is a powerful statement and i believe it wholeheartedly!!!!!!!

whether you think you can or can't.... you are right!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks!! Right now I don't remember who it was attributed to, I'm not sure if it was Henry Ford or Thomas Edson, but yeah, it sure is a quite powerful statement!
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Old 06-21-2008, 01:34 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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A couple of problems with this perspective.

First off, "pay as you can afford" would, AGAIN, mean that people who have worked hard and become successful. . must. .AGAIN pay for those who have not achieved.

I could see you charging Bill Gates 1 million dollars to remove a hangnail, and an illegal alien pays nothing for a quadruple bypass. Is that "fair"? HELL NO!!!

The price of a commodity is set by it's availability. . period. If there are 25 doctors standing around who can perform tonsillectomy's, then the price goes down if there are only 1-2 tonsillectomy's to do every month. But, if only 1 in a thousand doctors can remove your brain tumor. . well . .guess what. . it might just cost you a bit to stay alive.

It is sad that your friends had to sign a check in order for a procedure to be done. However, 50 years ago would they have been able to even HAVE the procedure done, for ANY amount of money? This is where we walk the fine line of "How much is your life worth to you". It's one of the most difficult grey areas in Medical services. I certainly do not begrudge the Hospital wanting to be paid up front. . how many times have they lost a ton of money because of non payment? You see. . all those free loaders ruined it for people who are honest.

But your solutions show a basic misunderstanding on what is a RIGHT. . and what is a commodity to be bought and sold. Medical service has NEVER been a "Right". It is a commodity where highly trained doctors do their very best to protect and cure patients. How much do you think that Doctor pays in MalPractice insurance every year, due to fraudulent lawsuits and the like? How much do you think it raises his fees, the hospitals fees, the cost of every bit of medical care you or your friends receive?

And, when you start rationing that health service, or demanding doctors receive less compensation for their extremely difficult skills. . you will lose not only the quantity of services you want in the first place, but also the quality of professionalism necessary to ensure good care, proper recovery, and a full life after recovery.

Ask yourself. . how much would YOU pay for the best health care in the world. . . how much would YOU pay to stay alive, and have the best surgeon available to keep you that way. . how much is your arm, leg, eye, or loved one worth to you. . . then ask yourself. . do you REALLY want some Government Bureaucrat deciding who lives or dies, receives treatment or not, and who is going to do the procedure in the first place? And, when you need it today, right now. . not 9-18 months from now. . will YOU have access to it?

And , lastly, ask yourself. . those same doctors who charge so much money. . how many procedures do they do for free . how many hours do they spend with patients who do not have a penny to their name. . and how often do they go out in the night, short on sleep and dead tired, because they are the only ones who can save a life, a limb, or a loved one of yours? Now. . who shold make the decision of how much they are paid, or how available their services should be?

Do you REALLY trust your government that much? I certainly do NOT!!
Well, the idea would to apply the pay what you can afford method only to life-saving, really serious, critical and necessary treatments. No matter how high you valuate human life, if you can't afford it, there's no point in valuating it at all, in my opinion of course.
In fact, I believe that the very idea of putting a price tag on human life is wrong, both morally and ethically. In my opinion, it just can't be valuated in terms of money.

So, OK, the government shouldn't be dictating what the doctors would be earning (although it could offer a fair suggestion...) but the costs of a procedure should be reasonable and structured in a logical way. Not just based on how much critical to one's life it is.
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Old 06-21-2008, 04:40 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Well, the idea would to apply the pay what you can afford method only to life-saving, really serious, critical and necessary treatments. No matter how high you valuate human life, if you can't afford it, there's no point in valuating it at all, in my opinion of course.
In fact, I believe that the very idea of putting a price tag on human life is wrong, both morally and ethically. In my opinion, it just can't be valuated in terms of money.

So, OK, the government shouldn't be dictating what the doctors would be earning (although it could offer a fair suggestion...) but the costs of a procedure should be reasonable and structured in a logical way. Not just based on how much critical to one's life it is.
The same should be said for drugs. The simply outrageous prices for drugs have no bearing on what it cost to develop them or patent them. It is an absolute fact that the cure is what is valued and that sets the price.

Its like aids drugs, really nothing new at all, just a cocktail of a lot of existing drugs but regardless it gets bottled up like a CocaCola recipe and the price is simply off the hook.

Anyone have the recipe for CocaCola,
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:16 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

Ge. . where to start. . so many LONG posts .. .

Okay. . Kiwi, 4% of the population get heard because they YELL and WHINE a lot and the Mdeia WANTS to give them coverage. . period. You will never see the Media giving coverage of the 40% Conservative side of the US electorate . .never!!!

concerning Barak Obama. . his faults are too many to list. He's as dyed in the wool liberal/socialist as the y come, had NO idea what he is doing, and thinks that higher taxes more government, twisting the truth just enough to make it plausible instead of a lie are all GOOD things.

When Obama talks of "investment in America" WHOSE money is he taling about? MINE. . and what will he invest in?? The same stupid go-nowhere programs that have never worked before.

On one point i am REALLY going to let rip. . . America does NOT need a a "Charismatic leader" They need Someone VERY strong willed. . Very quiet . who never has to explain his actions, and who gets the job done as efficiently as possible. I don;t care how charismatic or well spoken a President is. Jimmy Carter was very much both of those things. . . as will Billy C. . but Billy was a pathological Liar, and Jimmy was an idiotic fool, for all his intelligence.

Who cares about "Charisma" if you make bad choices all the time, have no basic principles , and if you drive your country into the ground with unsound energy practices, unsafe National Security, ignorant Foreign Policy, and shaking hands with the Enemy?

McCain is not much better. . BUT, at least he will not back down at the mere suggestion that we are offending someone, at least he tries to tell the truth, at least he wants to drill for oil/promote energy independence/keep taxes low/and keep our Security strong and assured.

Now, Kiwi, being you have lived in Socialized nations all your life, I do not expect for you to understand how BAD Obama is concerning Upholding the traditional values and positions of the United States. he thinks disarming is a way to gain peace .. and that higher taxes will make the economy better. both are fatally flawed positions, and show his total lack of understanding of what America really is.

If he is elected. . America goes to hell very quickly. . if McCain is elected, he will NOT do things the way GW Bush did. . perhaps his way will be an improvement. But either way, McCain is a far cry better man for the Job than Obama.

And Kiwi. . nothing personal. . you can read all the books you want. . they are edited and gone over to make the author (obama) look really good. But, books do not make anyone qualified to make a decision concerning being a REAL leader or the best choice for President. . they only show one facet of the persons personality. Please . ditch the books, then go on some GOOD Conservative web Sites and get the "other side of the story" concerning Barak Obama. Look at his words being deciphered by experts in doing so. . look at his track record, lack of wisdom in many things and bragged about socialist agenda. then put yourself in OUR shoes. . do WE, the Americans really want someone like Obama in the Oval Office? Look at it from OUR perspective. . not the safety of your home in Chile. WE have to live with the idiot. . you do not. Look at what he will try to do, what he has stted his policies are. . then become a REAL American for 24 hours, and look at what HIS ideas will do to destroy the way of life Amricans have.

Look closely before you support Obama .. there is a lot more there than any book will ever show you.. do some research, then go take a week and study the Federalist Papers and Constitution. READ them .. understand them .. and compare THEM to what Barak Obama says, and thinks. I guarantee. . Barak Obama wants very much to destroy the spirit of the founding documents of this country. Because in HIS mind. . CHANGE is all that matters. . not if it is GOOD change. . progressive change. . but only if the things HE does not like get destroyed or removed from this country forever.

Study carefully before coming down on Obama's side, Kiwi. . .Look at him from OUR point of view. . not yours. I hope you see the light.
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:21 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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The same should be said for drugs. The simply outrageous prices for drugs have no bearing on what it cost to develop them or patent them. It is an absolute fact that the cure is what is valued and that sets the price.

Its like aids drugs, really nothing new at all, just a cocktail of a lot of existing drugs but regardless it gets bottled up like a CocaCola recipe and the price is simply off the hook.

Anyone have the recipe for CocaCola,
Kiwi. .the cheapest drug to treat Aids is. . .ABSTINENCE. Anything else should cost you an arm and a leg for being stupid enough to get the disease.
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Old 06-21-2008, 05:44 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Who cares about "Charisma" if you make bad choices all the time, have no basic principles , and if you drive your country into the ground with unsound energy practices, unsafe National Security, ignorant Foreign Policy, and shaking hands with the Enemy?


Look closely before you support Obama .. there is a lot more there than any book will ever show you.. do some research, then go take a week and study the Federalist Papers and Constitution. READ them .. understand them .. and compare THEM to what Barak Obama says, and thinks. I guarantee. . Barak Obama wants very much to destroy the spirit of the founding documents of this country. Because in HIS mind. . CHANGE is all that matters. . not if it is GOOD change. . progressive change. . but only if the things HE does not like get destroyed or removed from this country forever.

Study carefully before coming down on Obama's side, Kiwi. . .Look at him from OUR point of view. . not yours. I hope you see the light.
Let's see here 50+ years of policies towards countries that don't see it our way hasn't worked, maybe it's time we extend a hand and open 2 way communications with these "evil" countries. North Korea and Iran wants to talk with the US, but then we have to put all these limitations on the talks.

As for destroying the founding documents, they are pretty much just a god da_n piece of paper already thanks to the current conservative administration.
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Old 06-21-2008, 06:25 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Let's see here 50+ years of policies towards countries that don't see it our way hasn't worked, maybe it's time we extend a hand and open 2 way communications with these "evil" countries. North Korea and Iran wants to talk with the US, but then we have to put all these limitations on the talks.

As for destroying the founding documents, they are pretty much just a god da_n piece of paper already thanks to the current conservative administration.

There is a big difference between "Charisma" and Wisdom, japan3D . .and blame the Liberals for tearing the founding documents up so badly. . for the Conservatives.. they are more important than the Bible.

When Iran UN-declares war on the US, I'd consider talking to them . .you really don't remember 1980 very well, do you? They also have to embrace the rights of Israel to exist. Then, perhaps we can talk.

When PyongYang UN-declares war on South Korea (remember it's only a truce, or ceasefire. . not an actual lack of war) then perhaps we can talk with N. Korea about letting them re-join the human planet. In the meantime, ending their Nuclear proliferation unilaterally would go a long way to PROVING they are sincere.

In the meantime, I strongly suggest a bit of real STUDY into the matters which you so easily dismiss as the fault of the US. We do not NEED to talk with Iran or N. Korea. THEY need to talk to the world, and be accepted by everyone .. the first step is being really nice. . to EVERYONE. . . and shutting up about how many people they wan tto kill if they are not listened to.

Midgets with butter knives should not come to gunfights and start talking trash, and that's exactly what they are doing.


BTW. .here's the best answer I have for iran and N. Korea . .TOURISM via Pan Am. . .My thanks fo Suhkoi26 for this great photo of an airliner soon heading toward Tehran and Pyongyang ! ! ! : https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/...cted-panam.jpg
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:03 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

Why must Israel be always brought into all political discussions? Are they that engrained into our political machine? If so, why does the US government feel this is necassary?
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:11 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Why must Israel be always brought into all political discussions? Are they that engrained into our political machine? If so, why does the US government feel this is necassary?
Instead of asking WHY. . how about telling us WHY NOT. the answer WHY is self-evident. . WHY NOT has never been properly explained. Here's your chance.

Let this be your first lesson in just how complicated the world really is. A logical answer, based on facts, and merit, would go a long way.

Start with the Israel Accords in Britain prior to WW1 and as far back as the 1870's and 80's, the fall and dissolution of the Ottoman Emprie during/after WW1, the establishment of states and nations in the Middle East, and their borders, during the 20's and 30's, . . and the political agendas necessary to form the Nation of Israel in 1948. . . and go from there.

Please remember. . most Arab states who despise Israel did not exist as Nations prior to the dissolution of the Ottoman Emprie in 1922. . this includes Iran.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:15 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

Barak Obama is the forunner of the Anti-Christ, and he is bringing hell with him!!! He is the fullfillment of the book of the Revelation!! Enough said. He wants to change this country alright, but the kind of change he wants is going to literally destroy this nation and take this world into destruction. He has many things in the closet, you think it's bad now just wait untill January 20,2009 when he will refuse to place his hand on the Holy Bible to be sworn in but will ask that the Koran be used. All had better beware of this man.
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:27 PM
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Re: American Airlines, Ford Trucks, 135 a barrel, getting nervous here!

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Barak Obama is the forunner of the Anti-Christ, and he is bringing hell with him!!! He is the fullfillment of the book of the Revelation!! Enough said. He wants to change this country alright, but the kind of change he wants is going to literally destroy this nation and take this world into destruction. He has many things in the closet, you think it's bad now just wait untill January 20,2009 when he will refuse to place his hand on the Holy Bible to be sworn in but will ask that the Koran be used. All had better beware of this man.
Does this mean you suspect him of practicing Al-Taqiyya?
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