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Old 06-04-2008, 07:12 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Subscribed! Very cool idea Prizzy. Sorry you are going to miss Camden but family should come before IMAC, lest you intend to loose your family

Mike, I'll be in Camden late Wednesday night and maybe even that morning if I cut class. Come down on Thursday for some practice and hucking. Four days would make it more worthwhile than three... LOL

Craig
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:14 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Hey Prizzy I'm here too !
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Old 06-04-2008, 07:24 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

As a NE region guy, I will have to keep my nose pressed to the screen and hope that one day our region comes of age. Why couldn't the line be 20 minutes farther north.....
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:04 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

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As a NE region guy, I will have to keep my nose pressed to the screen and hope that one day our region comes of age. Why couldn't the line be 20 minutes farther north.....
Well if you want to come down here and fly with us ,,,,,,, then come on down !
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:07 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Boo ya! I here too!
Pride your new ML looks great. Mine was the best sequence plane I ever had... the next will be better!

No Camden for me either. I might make it to triple tree, but am planning to be at clover creek.

Regarding the rules and part of the discussions going on from Butcherfest... it is clear to me that there needs to be some options to avoid putting a flying site at risk. I do think Mark had a valid point to say, as an option, why not fly the rolling loop instead... the response back from several people is that it isn't a legal maneuver and they clearly refer back to the "IMAC bible", rules book to reference (which I agree by supporting the rules).... what I do not understand is that not all the rules are followed.

During my RC break, I spent a lot of time building street/strip cars for class specific racing. The rules are also outlined very clearly (same as our IMAC guide), but what I do not get is the rules in the IMAC guide are sometimes enforced... sometimes not.

2 areas off the top of my head are the infamous, pilot/panel and sound. These items are part of building a class specific airframe, the same way I would build a drag car (mike chandley... please chime in). The reason I bring this up is that many of the old drag strips are being shut down the same way we are loosing our flying sites. Many racing classes require mufflers to keep the sound down. In racing it is very clear, if the rules say mufflers of this type and design... then you have them or you don't race. When it comes to equipment it is very "black and white" to me.

Please don't even mention the cost of anything... most of us are already flying $5000+ toy planes.

Believe me I'm not picking on anyone... just discussing. So, why do we have rules that we don't follow? Either take them out or enforce them.

Also, how can we say "no a rolling loop isn't an option" because it isn't in our rules book? Seems to me like we are splitting hairs.

If what I have written has upset anyone, then I am sorry. That is not my intention… this is my honest view. (BTW, I do think our contests are better run then ever before)
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Old 06-04-2008, 08:52 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Thanks Prizzy for starting this thread. We've got a lot of good folks that have a great deal invested in IMAC and open discussions like this one are good for the sport.

Chris
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:00 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyMatt View Post
Boo ya! I here too!
Pride your new ML looks great. Mine was the best sequence plane I ever had... the next will be better!

No Camden for me either. I might make it to triple tree, but am planning to be at clover creek.

Regarding the rules and part of the discussions going on from Butcherfest... it is clear to me that there needs to be some options to avoid putting a flying site at risk. I do think Mark had a valid point to say, as an option, why not fly the rolling loop instead... the response back from several people is that it isn't a legal maneuver and they clearly refer back to the "IMAC bible", rules book to reference (which I agree by supporting the rules).... what I do not understand is that not all the rules are followed.

During my RC break, I spent a lot of time building street/strip cars for class specific racing. The rules are also outlined very clearly (same as our IMAC guide), but what I do not get is the rules in the IMAC guide are sometimes enforced... sometimes not.

2 areas off the top of my head are the infamous, pilot/panel and sound. These items are part of building a class specific airframe, the same way I would build a drag car (mike chandley... please chime in). The reason I bring this up is that many of the old drag strips are being shut down the same way we are loosing our flying sites. Many racing classes require mufflers to keep the sound down. In racing it is very clear, if the rules say mufflers of this type and design... then you have them or you don't race. When it comes to equipment it is very "black and white" to me.

Please don't even mention the cost of anything... most of us are already flying $5000+ toy planes.

Believe me I'm not picking on anyone... just discussing. So, why do we have rules that we don't follow? Either take them out or enforce them.

Also, how can we say "no a rolling loop isn't an option" because it isn't in our rules book? Seems to me like we are splitting hairs.

If what I have written has upset anyone, then I am sorry. That is not my intention… this is my honest view. (BTW, I do think our contests are better run then ever before)
Hello there... "Matty Matt"... I don't believe you are "splitting hairs"....I believe that you have not taken the time to completely read the rules.

Our General Rules 6.6 specifically states: "A realistic 3 dimensional human pilot and viewable instrument panel shall be appropriately installed in all Scale Aerobatic aircraft. (A one (1) percent flight score penalty will be assessed for non-compliance)"

I think that this is self explanatory. A pilot has a choice if he/she wants to install a pilot/panel or not. If the pilot follows the latter, then there is a 1% penalty.

How can we put in maneuvers "at a whim & a fancy"? It would be good if you got a hold of the Aresti Catalog & see (and understand) how the maneuvers are constructed & how a specific K value for a maneuver is arrived at. The IMAC sequence committee constructs National & International sequences for our Knowns and also our Unknowns. We follow specific guidelines laid out in the Aresti Catalog and going off on a "tangent" & doing "our own thing" would create untold damage to all the work that has been done to get us where we are at present.

Maybe someone can petition the BOD to consider an exclusion of the roller at specific sites that have a fly-over problem, but to make an overall assessment of deleting rolling turns from our sequences would be foolhardy.

Wayne
Chairman
IMAC Sequence Committee
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:16 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Matty,

I'm pretty certain Ty was getting to this in his posts. IMAC is trying to "standardize" across all regions and contests and that is gonna take time to accomplish. I know of a few contests that absolutely require the pilot and others that do not when clearly the rule says to "dock" those who do not use one the 1% and the scoring software and spreadsheet is even designed to handle it for you.

I've seen time and again that 1% be the difference between first and second or second and third. I've judged/flown at contests where it was agreed upon that everyone got fives on ACS and sound when clearly some people easily deserved 10's and othersshould have gotten less. All because "it was easier" or "it's too subjective" when clearly there are rules spelled out covering these items. I've seen the score not even considered for not having the pilot/panel, which is the point you are making, I'm just taking one step further with the ACS and Sound scores

Part of standardizing is getting everyone on the same page and following the same rules everytime and that is gonna be tough to do. I think the best place to start is the CD's, but again that is just my opinion.

Being from the NE and flying in the SE region I can say for sure it's like night and day. NE CD's like Tank, Albert, Dave and a few others who I cannot remember names at the moment, are very good at what they do but it seems that at times, support for them and the NE region in general is lacking.

As you said, I am not trying to upset anyone, it's frustrating to me seeing another great flying site get shut down.
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:49 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

I would like ever one to go and read what Ty wrote on the butcherfest thread, before coming to the conclusion that the roller was the main problem. Did it help matters no, But there was more than one thing going on there, that contributed to the whole situation. I Think you see this contest continue but just not at that field. Its a great contest and we all had a lot of fun and great flying. HINT HINT PETE.


As for the noise issue that some have talked about in other places. I think cds should consider doing what tripple tree has done. I know I will look at this closely next year for my contest.


Josh
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:49 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

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I've seen time and again that 1% be the difference between first and second or second and third.
Trust me, Matt knows all about that
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:53 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Guys I think Matt is well aware of what the pilot and dash panel score can do to you. At my contest Matt did not have one of them and that cost him the contest. Thats how close the scores were between first and second place.

Josh
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Old 06-04-2008, 09:59 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

I woulds all so like to say I have been in Imac for three years and ever year the rules and interpritation of them have got better and better. If we all look at the rules we can find fault in them, and that goes with any thing. But the thing is,we as a group meaning IMAC and the many people who spend hours making it better, are making changes for the better.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:18 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ifly3d View Post
I woulds all so like to say I have been in Imac for three years and ever year the rules and interpritation of them have got better and better. If we all look at the rules we can find fault in them, and that goes with any thing. But the thing is,we as a group meaning IMAC and the many people who spend hours making it better, are making changes for the better.

Totally agreed. I have been involved with IMAC since the late 80's and have watched/been part of the progression... the tireless work those on the BOD or those that help run the events can not be appreciated enough. Since this is a SE thread... I will say I am very impressed with the professionalism that the Judging Seminars and contests are run with. Truly top notch in the SE.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:19 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyMatt View Post
what I do not get is the rules in the IMAC guide are sometimes enforced... sometimes not.

2 areas off the top of my head are the infamous, pilot/panel and sound.
I haven't been to a contest recently where these two rules haven't been enforced. They certainly were at BF. I think you could argue on the effectiveness of the rules, but I think they're pretty commonly followed these days.

Pete
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Old 06-04-2008, 11:38 AM
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Re: SE IMAC Competition Thread

Unless I am reading what has been written wrong, I know we are all aware of the panel/pilot being the deciding factor in a lot of cases. Been there, had it happen myself.

Looking at the scores from BFII you can see it assuming the names with the asterisk (*) next to them did not have the pilot/panel. I watched Tank last year at a contest get down to doing the math at one contest only to discover he would have placed where he wanted too had he had them installed, next contest he had them installed but that contest did not use that part of the score.

I agree the SE contests are better in a lot of ways. I flew 2 contests last year (not in the SE) where those items were not scored, ACS and sound were agreed upon at the pilots meeting as to what everyone was going to get.

It all goes back to everyone doing the same thing, i.e... continuity in using the rules as written.
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