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Old 05-29-2008, 01:46 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Originally Posted by mike chandley View Post
I need software on pipe making (I have 3 contacts now)
You probably already know of this one, but I'll throw it out there if anybody else wants to play with it.

http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javapipe_en.htm
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:56 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Originally Posted by Simpleton View Post
You probably already know of this one, but I'll throw it out there if anybody else wants to play with it.

http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javapipe_en.htm
Thanks,
I have that one. I am looking at TSR software has anyone played with this?
http://www.tsrsoftware.com/index_2.html
What about http://www.bevenyoung.com.au/mota.htm
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Old 05-29-2008, 01:59 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Originally Posted by Simpleton View Post
You probably already know of this one, but I'll throw it out there if anybody else wants to play with it.

http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/javapipe_en.htm

Kool web site , Thanks !
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:01 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Here are a couple of book links I have found... great reading so far.
http://toostroke.blogspot.com/2007/1...-handbook.html
http://www.kreidler.nl/artikelen/per...raham-bell.pdf
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:38 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

I ended up putting a small pulley from an idler pulley setup on a small block Chevy on the end of the crank shaft. I had a machine shop make me 2 of them, one DA and one 3W. There was still room to bolt the coupler to the dyno after the 1/2" pulley. You will need to buy a small go kart starter and put a pulley on it too. You can find old school kart starters with the pulley on them already. Anyway, you put a couple of small hooks from a bungy cord or something near the motor. When you are ready, pull back on the starter (mounted on the dyno, but lose enough to rock it back) and that puts tension on the belt, then hit the starter button. When the motor fires, relax the starter motor, and hang the belt on the hooks in a way that it will not touch the shaft or anything rotating. It works great and starts 100 HP motors as easy. I'll be at the shop tomorrow, I'll get a pic.
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:53 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Originally Posted by GremlinX View Post
I ended up putting a small pulley from an idler pulley setup on a small block Chevy on the end of the crank shaft. I had a machine shop make me 2 of them, one DA and one 3W. There was still room to bolt the coupler to the dyno after the 1/2" pulley. You will need to buy a small go kart starter and put a pulley on it too. You can find old school kart starters with the pulley on them already. Anyway, you put a couple of small hooks from a bungy cord or something near the motor. When you are ready, pull back on the starter (mounted on the dyno, but lose enough to rock it back) and that puts tension on the belt, then hit the starter button. When the motor fires, relax the starter motor, and hang the belt on the hooks in a way that it will not touch the shaft or anything rotating. It works great and starts 100 HP motors as easy. I'll be at the shop tomorrow, I'll get a pic.
Thanks,
Sounds like a good idea. I have a Machinest friend Mark McClellen. We make anything we need. I was thinking about driving from the opposite end of the water brake but what you have will be better because you are pulling on the crank close to the motor. Upon relaxation with the belt that close to the crank snout you could rest the belt on the motor after it cranks I can have them made easy.
What diameter pulley on the crank?
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Old 05-29-2008, 06:19 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Lots to learn here.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:53 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Lots to learn here.
Much to learn but there is a wealth of knowledge out there if we can get them to give it up.

Some more things I am interested in are leak down numbers for broken in and new motors.

What exhaust temps others are seeing in the air. Header and pipe temps on gas.

What head temps in the air.

What is the difference in rpm going vertical compared to on the ground readings.

What exhaust temps run on alcohol. Header and pipe temps.

I am looking at 950 deg on my ZDZ 210 going vertical full power. (on gas 2" from piston)

My ZDZ 210 also goes 5400 rpm vertical and 6400 flat out level with Mej 31X12 3 blade.

My head temps run a cool 95-110 deg in flight (2nd fin from the top of the jug.)

Those are real in the air numbers... thanks to my in flight Eagle Tree system.

Much, much to learn now.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:07 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

I guess the pulley is 2"-2 1/4" ? Something small, I wanted to keep rotating mass down. In hindsite, once it worked, I should have had an aluminum one made but this works and I got busy testing. On a strong DA-100, I will see about 1300-1500 on the EGT. I am using aircraft gauges until I get my data logger fixed. I raised the ports .050" and slicked up the carb and picked up 1 hp across the board, and about 1.1 ft lbs of tq. It's begging for more timing, but I am out of adjustment, I think I will make an adapter this week. This is good stuff. I could spend days on a dyno or the flow bench.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:19 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Mike, as a fellow dyno designer/operator let me give you a piece of advice/warning... Two stroke engines are very suceptable to holeing pistons during full throttle step tests on brake dynos. I have had it happen to me countless times. This is why I quit building brake dynos and stuck with inertia types. Just be cautious with your mixtures, and timings when doing step tests. A hole can develop in about 3 seconds in the right conditions!

As for the TSR pipe software, I have used it quite a bit in the past and it is pretty good. You need to be exacting when measuring your engine variables though. Garbage in garbage out they say! Seriously though, TSR software will get you in the ballpark in most cases, saving many hours of hunting for the right angles, lengths, volumes, and shapes, but you will still spend countless hours tweaking designs to get REAL improvements.

At least TSR gets you to the ball park, most other software I have used or tried wont even get you in the same county as the ball park!!

I really found alot of good use in the hemi-head program and also the squish velocity program from TSR. Oh yeah, also don't forget degree-it and layout programs, both VERY useful!!

Most important, have fun and share your sucesses with the Giant crew!!

BK
www.nitrodynesystems.com
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:27 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

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Originally Posted by GremlinX View Post
I guess the pulley is 2"-2 1/4" ? Something small, I wanted to keep rotating mass down. In hindsite, once it worked, I should have had an aluminum one made but this works and I got busy testing. On a strong DA-100, I will see about 1300-1500 on the EGT. I am using aircraft gauges until I get my data logger fixed. I raised the ports .050" and slicked up the carb and picked up 1 hp across the board, and about 1.1 ft lbs of tq. It's begging for more timing, but I am out of adjustment, I think I will make an adapter this week. This is good stuff. I could spend days on a dyno or the flow bench.
Thanks for the size pulley. Mark came over this eve. and we decided to make a steel shaft with hub adapter for a alum. pulley.
I am not concerned with bolting this brake directly on the end of the 150 cc and up motors, I am concerned about bolting it to smaller crankshaft motors like 50 cc stuff without some extra support.
1300 - 1500 is close to the limit I would think, but if its like mine I do not see 950 till the top of a very long vertical climb.
Thanks for the numbers.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:41 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxwrench View Post
Mike, as a fellow dyno designer/operator let me give you a piece of advice/warning... Two stroke engines are very suceptable to holeing pistons during full throttle step tests on brake dynos. I have had it happen to me countless times. This is why I quit building brake dynos and stuck with inertia types. Just be cautious with your mixtures, and timings when doing step tests. A hole can develop in about 3 seconds in the right conditions!

As for the TSR pipe software, I have used it quite a bit in the past and it is pretty good. You need to be exacting when measuring your engine variables though. Garbage in garbage out they say! Seriously though, TSR software will get you in the ballpark in most cases, saving many hours of hunting for the right angles, lengths, volumes, and shapes, but you will still spend countless hours tweaking designs to get REAL improvements.

At least TSR gets you to the ball park, most other software I have used or tried wont even get you in the same county as the ball park!!

I really found alot of good use in the hemi-head program and also the squish velocity program from TSR. Oh yeah, also don't forget degree-it and layout programs, both VERY useful!!

Most important, have fun and share your sucesses with the Giant crew!!

BK
www.nitrodynesystems.com
What kind of exhaust temps were you seeing before the hole?
I know as I get closer I will make a few pistons into ash trays but thats ok with me.
I planned on the entire set from TSR. Thanks for the knowledge of this program.
Remember also I am not looking for high rpm hp I am looking for stump pulling torque to pull large three blades. I do not plan on pushing these to the max just bumping up the power where I think I need it.
I did my piston speed calculation yesterday for my 275 even at 5500 rpm the piston speed is only in the 1700fps range. I saw others pushing 4000-4500 so I don't think I will subject my motors to what a all out racing engine has.
Thanks for the info, I think there is alot of knowledge out there that most will share and we can all learn from this.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:18 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

It's not the ex. temp that really spikes but the combustion temp. It rises so quickly from detonation that it melts either the center of the piston or the edge of the piston at the ex. port sticking the ring.

Usually this happens lower in the rpm range closer to peak tq. 3000-4500 rpm. Personally, I wouldn't hold a two stroke engine at any given rpm under full load, for longer than 5 seconds on the dyno.

Acceleration tests are your best bet for reliable testing of two stroke engines.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:57 PM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Like I said earlier, I prefer my inertia dyno much better, but you can use yours more or less as an inertia dyno. There is no reason to really hold it there at one RPM for too long anyway. We've done demolition runs before with the purpose built kart motors such as IAME (Parilla and Komets) and they are brutal. We had a Formula A direct drive 100cc rotary motor on gas that Parilla wanted us to basically destroy for the data. We could not burn it up, though we did stick a ring. Reringed and decarboned, we did the rpm test. We turned it 23,000 for 4 minutes and it started to lose power so we shut it off. That poor motor was 1800 EGT and 550 CHT when she started to bog. We did not stick it and once we cooled it off, and refired it, it was only 5% down on power.... crazy stuff.

One of the more interesting test's that I did this winter was oil testing. I can tell you that hands down Mercury QuickSilver is the best oil we tried. It burns real clean and is easy to buy. The EGT was down 80* and it burns very good. I have a fuel octane meter and I can see why it burns better. When you add oil, it will dilute the octane to a point and also reduce the flashpoint too. The meter pretty much tells you what to expect. Digitron makes it also. Lawn Boy was the worst oil out of all that we tested. Blednzall is wonderful oil too. Very Good actually, but it burns a little messy. I am still up in the air about 100:1 oil mixing. AmsOil makes the same power, but it runs hotter by 55* over 50:1 QuickSilver. QuickSilver is an ashless oil and is not synthetic. It is also made by Mercury at their Fon Du Lack plant. They literally make their own oil, which is one of a few companies who do. I know some guys swear by Pennzoil . But in a glass jar cleaned by cyclo-hexane , Pennzoil seperates from the ethonal that is in pump gas. Pennzoil aslo seperates from TEL in race fuel. Stay away from that stuff! Bla bla bla... seeya later.
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:22 AM
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Re: DYNO, Lets build some H.P. together!

Thanks again guys this is good info.
My computer controlled load control is fully programable to sweep rpm in any steps I want. So how many rpms per second would you set it to sweep test? 200 rpm per sec?
If I run alcohol sounds like I am alot less likely to hole a piston.

Next question...Wich is better and why when running alcohol, glow plugs, or controlling the timing with spark?

The 3-W 275 has twin spark would there be a benifit to running twin glo plugs???

I am going to a Imac contest today, so I will check back as I can today.
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