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Old 01-21-2019, 12:48 PM
Mooney 78865 is offline
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How to regulate snap roll speeds?

So, I'm new to IMAC and am flying a 38% Giles 202 with a 120. As this is my first foray into IMAC I'm curious on how folks are controlling their speed going into a snap maneuver. I've been practicing the Intermediate sequence and there are three snaps. One on a uphill 45 line, another inverted on a horizontal line, (the hardest to manage) and another on a down line. Obviously, speed dictates everything. On my F3A plane I have a "brake" to regulate down line snaps so I'm generally very consistent on entries. I'm using the trainer switch for the snap function.
Anyway, I'm curious. At least the wife and I have learned to read the Aresti symbols! Sorta...
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Old 01-22-2019, 05:55 PM
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I don't recommend using a snap switch personally, especially if you are looking at doing intermediate or higher. Using sticks to do the snaps will allow you to "fly" the snap to get consistent rates during everything. You'll be able to use more or less of each input in order to get the rates that you're looking for. generally how much elevator and rudder you use will dictate the depth of the snap, and somewhat dictate the speed (providing of course it's still a snap by the rules).

My 2 cents.

A.J.
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Old 01-23-2019, 12:52 AM
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AJ is right but being an older pilot I use a boost condition rather than try to get my sticks
to snap as I want them to. On my 18mz, when I hit full rudder and full aileron, my ailerons
boost up to a higher level and my rudder and elevator drop back automatically to a
preset lower setting. All w/o moving a switch. Its not for everyone but it sure aided my
inconsistent snaps. The only way to woop up on the young pilots like AJ is with trickery and
evil cunning deceit!!
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Old 01-23-2019, 08:46 AM
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After watching AJ fly any delusions I had about flying Advanced were suddenly comedic fodder. Elders have rest homes. IMAC has intermediate.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:09 AM
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For starters, this excellent article by Ty Lyman might help.
http://www.mini-iac.org/Education/Ar...lume-2-Issue-1
Also as previously mentioned, I would not recommend using a snap switch, but rather fly it. This becomes especially important when performing partial snaps because of the varying entry and recovery inputs necessary to maintain the lines before and after snap.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:35 AM
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A really interesting topic with an enormous number of variable.
First off, if you program a Snap Roll to a switch, that program will produce a good Snap (assuming you have it programed correctly) only at one speed. If the plane is going faster or slow than the speed you have it programmed for, it will change and it will still be dependent on how long you engage the switch. This timing of the switch will have to change in order to prevent over or under rotation and how it relates to the speed of the plane.
The same thing applies to the method described by "super rookie".
Learning to execute a good snap under all conditions without the aid of the above described methods is a daunting task and will require a substantial commitment along with many gallons of gas.
So, in my opinion, you may want to start out with using the switch or the "boost method" described by super Rookie but then start practicing without the aid of either one.
I should mention that I fly in the Intermediate Class however, I am no longer competitive.
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Old 01-23-2019, 01:28 PM
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I'd like to clarify a little bit:
I do use a snap CONDITION, I just don't have/suggest a "snap switch" that makes the inputs for me.
I also use Futaba, which (for me) makes things easier with how conditions work etc.

My snap condition is activated by being at more than 90% on the aileron stick AND more than 60% on the rudder. When those to statements are met, my snap condition is activated, which gives me significantly more aileron, a little more elevator, and a little less rudder. By setting it up this way I can fly the elevator completely, and tweak the amount of rudder I'm using for the situation, as long as I stay in the aileron and above the 60% of the rudder.

There are plenty of people that I fly with that don't use any sort of condition, however for me personally, I could not get the aileron feel how I wanted with the amount that was needed for the snaps I like.

Hope this helps, if not let me know i'll try to clarify.

A.J.
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Old 01-23-2019, 03:37 PM
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Well, there goes the "snap on a switch" theory!
What you have all said makes sense for controllability. I'll start working on my snaps with the sticks instead of the switch. Bummer too, I just figured out how to program positive, negative , left and right.....
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:45 AM
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AJ is exactly describing the "boost" method I use. It isn't really a switch but it allows you to
fly with lower and smoother rates and when you do a snap you can get all the aileron you want.
It also allows you to restrict or increase other surfaces during boost. several pilots use it including
this year's unlimited winner at the Shoot Out in Tucson. The main benefit is that you don't need to move a switch or switches to execute a snap. Some of the better known pilots however do not use
boost and they are easy to pick out while flying as they sound like they are typing a letter..almost.
Boost has the benefit of allowing you to hit the same throws each time w/o hitting or forgetting a switch.
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Old 01-25-2019, 06:05 AM
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I third what AJ and Super Rookie suggest, which Is the use of conditional switch or as we call it in the Jeti World, a logical switch.

With my transmitter, i have set up the following logical switches:

1. Negative Snap rate to the right, high throttle
2. Negative snap rate to the right, low throttle
3. positive snap rate to the right, high throttle
4. positive snap rate to the right, low throttle
5. Negative Snap rate to the left, high throttle
6. Negative snap rate to the left, low throttle
7. positive snap rate to the left, high throttle
8. positive snap rate to the left, low throttle

as has been mentioned, speed will affect the speed of the snap.

How do you get speed in a snap is with having enough aileron input. Also, as mentioned, how much elevator and rudder will determine how "deep" it gets.

For each snap, there are different inputs, and this is determined by flying the sequence, performing them, landing, then making program, adjustments.


If I perform a negative snap on a downline, the throttle stick is down, my program will have more aileron "boost" compared to my negative snap that is performed at a 45 degree upline. (when my throttle stick is above 50%).


Also, snaps to the right are faster than snaps to the left. SO my snap to left have more ailerons throw boost as compared to my snaps to the right. That way, I see same speed of snap for a particular snap, whether I do it to the left or the right. Helps with timing.
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Old 01-25-2019, 09:32 AM
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For what it’s worth it’s call logic switches with Futaba as well.

Cam,

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldn’t you want less aileron on a down line snap vs an up line or 45? Snap speed is proportional to aircraft speed, with that in mind your aircraft will be flying faster on the down line which in turn requires less aileron. At least that is how I have mine set up. I have been using logic switches for snap rates since 2013 and really like how it simplifies the pilot load! I believe it was Will Barringer and Kurt Koelling who were some of the first ones to utilize logic switches on the Futaba radio for snap conditions. Another thing you want to keep in mind is to set up conditions that turn off your snap roll condition. For example. Have a roller condition for rolling circles. This will keep you from activating the snap condition during rollers, also set up a landing condition .
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Old 01-25-2019, 09:41 AM
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For FUTABA Fans... Here is a set-up that Will Berninger had previously used on his transmitters and an explanation.
https://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/...&postcount=644
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eheliflyer View Post
For what itís worth itís call logic switches with Futaba as well.

Cam,

Correct me if I am wrong but wouldnít you want less aileron on a down line snap vs an up line or 45? Snap speed is proportional to aircraft speed, with that in mind your aircraft will be flying faster on the down line which in turn requires less aileron. At least that is how I have mine set up. I have been using logic switches for snap rates since 2013 and really like how it simplifies the pilot load! I believe it was Will Barringer and Kurt Koelling who were some of the first ones to utilize logic switches on the Futaba radio for snap conditions. Another thing you want to keep in mind is to set up conditions that turn off your snap roll condition. For example. Have a roller condition for rolling circles. This will keep you from activating the snap condition during rollers, also set up a landing condition .

Hi, yes, my aircraft is set up with flight modes, and the order of listing dictates the priority, so for example:

1. High rate (is number one on the list) Which all it is is hammertime
2. Roller rate
3. snap mode
4. IMAC rate (low rates)

so If I am flying at LOW rates, and my manual switch is switched to "low rates", then if i get the sticks in the "right" condition, it will activate the snap modes.

However, if I flip to roller rate or high rate, it will only do just that, it can never activate the lower conditions.

Also, i can set my "trim" and my "mixes" to each and every flight mode individually. SO for example, on my IMAC rate, I have maybe 2% rudder to elevator mix and 1% downline mix.
When I flip to roller rate or to hammer head, i deactivate the mixes, so that way there is no elevator input during rudder movement in those two specific maneuvers (rollers and hammerheads)

Great observation Heliflyer
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Old 01-25-2019, 04:11 PM
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Cam,

The power that we have in our equipment is amazing. I remember flying when we didn’t have dual rates...
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eheliflyer View Post
Cam,

The power that we have in our equipment is amazing. I remember flying when we didnít have dual rates...
Or channel reversing
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