Has anyone submitted an RFA to the rules committee to have clarification on the rules for judging 45 degree lines? We had a huge debate about this at the SE Judging seminar, with a lot of good discussion.

My impression was the consensus is that 45 lines should look like 45 lines to the judge, and not be steeper/shallower to represent a "true" 45 degree line. (Same theory as judging loops - they should be round, not oval to represent "true" round.)

Don - any discussion by the BOD?

Thanks,
Pete

I heard about the disagreement on this. The rules are very clear on this matter. Having said that, I am not sure this is the best way to go since it makes it very hard to judge in end box figures and it also changes depending on upwind/downwind. Honestly I think that it might be worth looking at changing this rule for the next cycle. But for now the rules are clear. You judge against the true 45 line and must account for visual distortion based on where it is. But I think judges should pay special attention to the last sentence of this rule.

Rule 5.3, Page SCA-11:

For 45-degree lines, judges must make
an allowance for the aircraft’s position relative to
their own. A true 45 degree line flown at the end
of the aerobatic airspace will appear steeper
when flown towards the end of the airspace and
shallow when flown towards the center. Judging
is of the true line flown and judges should not
downgrade the maneuver for visual deformation
due to the angle it is observed. Always give the
competitor the benefit of the doubt when not
sure.

Pete,

I don't understand something. You are saying that loops should be flown as a true loops and not egg shaped ovals that look like circles from ground (which I totally agree with).

Then you make the exact opposite argument for 45° lines, yet you make it sound like it is the same thing.

P.

Also, be careful what you wish for.

Here's a graphical representation of a 2000ft wide box with 75° lines from the pilot (or judge??) - just like it used to be. Two lines are drawn showing 45° lines as they should appear from pilots (judges) position.

Then, there's a line representing the flight path a plane would have to take along the X axis from the corner of the above box to "look like 45° line".

The TRUE angle of that line would have to be 14.51°. Is that really what you are after ????

Paul,

I'm not saying that at all. Loops are supposed to appear round to the judges (SCA 8.7.2). There is specific reference in the FJG to loops being downgraded if they are "L-shaped", egg-shaped, (pointed) or "E-shaped"). Your loop should appear perfectly round to the judge for maximum score - there is no allowance for oval loops because a true loop at 400ft would not appear round from the surface.

Why don't we judge 45 lines (and the altitude of rolling circles, for that matter) the same way? It's a huge inconsistency to require one figure to appear true (when it's not) yet other figures are supposed to BE true (when they don't look it).

Pete

pete i think your losing focus on a minute detail. The clearest presentation of the geometry ! period.

your 45 is not my 45 nor is it the other guy's. totaly subjective from where you stand. Is there any verbage that would correct this. I think not. so go back to the cardinal rule the clearest presentation.

my 2 cents
Tony Fandino

Originally Posted by paffy

Pete,

I don't understand something. You are saying that loops should be flown as a true loops and not egg shaped ovals that look like circles from ground (which I totally agree with).

Then you make the exact opposite argument for 45° lines, yet you make it sound like it is the same thing.

P.

I am not making an argument, I am siimply stating what the says. No arguments, just the rules. I quoted the exact rule and page. It is crystal clear.

Originally Posted by pcastine

Paul,
Why don't we judge 45 lines (and the altitude of rolling circles, for that matter) the same way? It's a huge inconsistency to require one figure to appear true (when it's not) yet other figures are supposed to BE true (when they don't look it).

Pete

I tend to agree with this. However, for now, all we have is the rule as written. We can look to change it for the next cycle since I do not think it fits the requirements for an URP change.

I'm pretty sure the "must appear round to the judge" is referring to wind correcting (as it states in the following sentence), not to any kind of visual distortion as it might appear from the ground.

Rulebook also says a loop has to be flown with "constant radius", which would be a complete contradiction.

If something should be reworded, I'd change "must appear round to the judge" into "must be round".

P.

Originally Posted by Judge

I am not making an argument, I am siimply stating what the says. No arguments, just the rules. I quoted the exact rule and page. It is crystal clear.

OK - so can I continue practicing TRUE 45 lines and TRUE loops for now ???

Originally Posted by pcastine

Has anyone submitted an RFA to the rules committee to have clarification on the rules for judging 45 degree lines? We had a huge debate about this at the SE Judging seminar, with a lot of good discussion.

My impression was the consensus is that 45 lines should look like 45 lines to the judge, and not be steeper/shallower to represent a "true" 45 degree line. (Same theory as judging loops - they should be round, not oval to represent "true" round.)

Don - any discussion by the BOD?

Thanks,
Pete

All lines appear different as a result of the paralax view, even horizontal or verticals. It is clearly stated in the F&JG that there will be a deviation in APPARENT angle due to it's position in the box. The rules, however, state that you are to fly the proper angle, and the judge must take the position of the aircraft into account, and assign downgrades for NOT flying a proper angle on the line, after taking into account the fact that 45 degree lines will appear steeper toward the ends of the box than in the middle.

IMO the judge should be sufficiently trained and experienced to be able to take all changes in angle and position into account, in order to give proper judgement of manuvers no matter what their position.

As a caveat . .always give the competitor the benefit of the doubt.

That is how I fly, that is how I Judge.

Judge,

You don't understand what an RFA is. If I wanted the rules changed now, I'd submit a URP to the AMA - not the IMAC BoD. URP's are tools designed for any AMA member to use. So, I could request a URP to change a control line speed rule if I wanted to, even though I've never flown a control line plane in my life.

A RFA is a request to the IMAC BoD to examine an issue. The question I raised was one that was debated hotly at the SE judging clinic held last month. Because of this ongoing debate over the inconsistency of the rules, I wanted to know if anyone had asked the BoD to consider this.

Pete

Originally Posted by tony-amps

pete i think your losing focus on a minute detail. The clearest presentation of the geometry ! period.

your 45 is not my 45 nor is it the other guy's. totaly subjective from where you stand. Is there any verbage that would correct this. I think not. so go back to the cardinal rule the clearest presentation.

my 2 cents
Tony Fandino

Thanks for making my point for me - "clearest presentation of the geometry": if it looks like a 45, then score it as a 45.

Pete

Originally Posted by pcastine

Thanks for making my point for me - "clearest presentation of the geometry": if it looks like a 45, then score it as a 45.

Pete

IF it looks like a 45 .. to WHOM?

If you present a 45 degree line that "looks" (on a protractor)like an actual 45 degree line going away, I'll probably downgrade your line since I am compensating for where the aircraft is, and know that the line shold appear to be steeper. If I see you flying a perceived 53-55 degree line (on a protractor) then I will likely score your line as a 45. Other judges will do the exact opposite.

Your RFA is a definite necessity, and the results should be communicated to everyone in IMAC before this season progresses much further. The rules clearly stipulate how it is to be scored, but Fred and Tom at the SE seminar were pretty adamant about scoring against what the rules stipulate.

Those of us trained and experienced in scoring it as stipulated in the F&JG are going to have a hard time swallowing "perceived 45" compared to "real 45". To add even more difficulty in judging those lines properly, with the ACS people are going to be flying in closer, meaning that the disparity between actual and perceived angles is going to be even worse.

Pete - what exactly is the "controversy" and why ? The 45 lines, or loops ?

Does the animation make sense to you ?

If yes - would you agree that if flying in the near corner at the end box as shown, you would have to fly a 14.5° line in order for it look like 45° ?

The rules are very clear on 45 lines. On the loops, they say "must appear round to the judge", which might be interpreted the way you describe...

What about vertical lines ? True vertical line at the end box looks like it's "going out" and doesn't "look vertical" to the judge.

P.