Guys....

I am trying to get my pilots license sometime in the future. The way the economy is right now , it's tough to make the bills , let alone pay for all the stuff needed to get a private pilots license.

With that being said , i KNOW one day this economy will be back on the up swing and i can start to live my live in a normal way. I would like to take all my classes , get my license and put in about 3 , 4 or possibly 5 years of flying something like a cessna under my belt.

There is a small airport in southern oregon in which gives classes on flying the Pitts. I think it's called wolf aviation >>>> http://www.wolfpitts.com/training.html . This was something i was wanting to look into in the future.

Since the "mono" wing aircraft are so expensive , would a pitts be a great alternative for doing mild aerobatics in , and still stay in the affordable range? I have looked at countless Pitts for sale , and they are NOT that expensive , especially compared to a mono wing like an extra , edge , MX2 and so forth. Crap.....you can't even find one ( mono - wing )in a price range under $200,00.00.

My question is this....would you own a pitts if you wanted to do some weekend flying , mild aerobatics and if you could afford it? Or have you owned or flown one in the past? And what kind of yearly inspections need to be done.....and about how much are they?

I was actually suprised how cheap some of the Pitts are. They can start out as low as under $20,000 all the way up to $150,000 for a more top of the line.

Like i said , this is something i'd like to do in the future.

and BTW.....we have a guy that flies out of the scappoose airfield in Oregon that tears up the sky around here a lot in a pitts. pretty fun to watch him do his thing. hmmmm??.....i think he gives rides as well.....i'm going to check into this.

For my 30th birthday,( I am 50 now), my wife, (at the time) got me a ride in a Pitts (30 min) from a guy at our local airport...let me tell you this, there is no, repeat NO, ride at any amusement park that even comes close to the ride in one of these . If you get a chance to ever take a ride in a Pitts, DO IT, DO IT, I had a grin on my face for days.

A Pitts is great for what you want to do. I am sure you have looked at all the different kinds and found out the differences. Budd Davidson is probably the best known Pitts instructor ( www.airbum.com/pitts.html ). As with any aircraft, the purchase price is usually the small part of the investment. You still have:

Hangar ($300/month) - it can NOT sit outside.
Insurance ($2,000/year) - can vary greatly depending on ratings, time, etc.
Maintance $1500+ - if you don't need a whole lot and that is doing most of the work yourself. Several models are certified so they need an annual like a Cessna. The Experimental models can be done with a little less cost, but not much if you do it right.
Overhaul fund - an aerobatic engine will never make it to TBO and an overhaul can easily run $10K - $15K. for a 180HP Lycoming, I would think 500-700hrs depending on the aerobatics. The harder you fly the less the hours. I think Matt Chapman gets about 15 hours TBO on his!! :-)

Then you have the expense when you actually get to fly.

I ran a budget a couple of years ago on an Christen Eagle II found it to be around $600/month out-of-pocket with the plane paid for and before I flew a single hour. Figure $60 in gas and oil an hour and a $25/hour engine reserve you are at $85/hour. At 10 hours a month, you are at $1,450/month - again, that is with the plane paid for completely.

Where I live, there is an airport which rents a Pitts S2A for $190/hour wet (You have to have renters insurance). www.stewartaircraft.net At least in the beginning, I would look for something like that in your area. Many people THINK they want to hang upside down and do hard aerobatics, but after 5-10 hours they find they are not so interested anymore.

I don't want to discourage you, but thought you might want to look at some alternatives (i.e. renting, a club, etc.).

Keith

All good advice above.

I have flown a Pitts S2B, it was a great aircraft to fly, but purpose built for aeros. This is not a social airplane. I have also owned a Cessna 180 and by the time you add up your annual bills it cost me about $600.00/hr to fly, without taking account of the capital investment tied up. I could have rented one down the road for $180.00/hr at the time.

Best bet once you have your private is get a type rating, do some aeros and then if you are still keen maybe buy into a syndicate to share fixed costs.

Cheers
Alan
ATPL

Jeffro,

Duuuude!

Call me I have about 45 hrs in a Pitts S2.(Black/white star burst paint job) The guys I use to work for had one. Worked on it and got to fly it quite a bit. I installed the spades on it. Worked on several others as well.

Did I mention - I worked on Art Scholl's propeller once.
OK I'm bragging...but it was very cool - for a 23yr old.
It's the main reason I became so infatuated with aerobatics.

Its not cheap.

Even after you own the plane the up keep can be overwhelming.
Even in 1983 it was over 145 bucks an hour for instruction.

Call me,

Ronster

Keith pretty much nailed it.Buying an airplane is the cheap part. Keeping it is where it gets expensive...

Now, assuming you have the funds to maintain it and fly it, a Pitts is a great airplane. Most versions are going to be able to keep you busy learning for a long time. I would shy away from the ones that are $20k though, and steer more towards the ones in the $60k + range. Reason being, most of the ones that are dirt cheap have either been groundlooped or need some major fabric work. I helped a friend redo the fabric on his experimental S-2S, and it takes ALOT of work to do. If you pay somebody to do it on a certified airplane, that $20k dollar airplane just turned into $40k or more.


Here's a good example of a nice one: http://www.aerotrader.com/find/listi...-s2+b-78594381

Here's an example of a $15K one to stay away from, about halfway down. It got groundlooped, plain and simple. : http://www.barnstormers.com/Biplane,...ID=b29e34feaa5

I have a Pitts S-2B and an RV-4. There is nothing like doing aerobatics in a real plane,- makes the model flying very tame. Yes, flying full scale can be expensive, but we all make sacrifices to do what we want. I completely rebuilt my Pitts, and it took me 1 1/2 years to get it done.

It takes time and money to get your license, but build up some time before looking to buy a Pitts. Make sure you get some time with someone with plenty of hours in one, to see if you like it. Pitts' are not easy airplanes to fly compared to Piper or Cessna stuff, but once you get used to it, it's fine. A Pitts S-2B will do everything in the unlimited ranks, and there may be only 25 pilots in the world who can get everything out of a Pitts. It's only because the monoplanes score better in competition than biplanes, that the Pitts isn't used in unlimited. Many people make the mistake of the Pitts being inferior in some way, and I can assure you, that is not the case. These airplane have a HUGE bang for the buck.

I say if you can do it, go for it. We only live once, and time does run out.

I think i just gained more knowledge on this thread , than any thread i have read or started about full scale aerobat costs. This is some amazing info for sure! It is sure more expensive than i was figuring , but i won't let that detour me from my goals. It's a 5-10 year plan , and i want to set it up so it can be affordable for me in the future. I really appreciate all this info guys....it's appreciated more than you know. I just wanted to know where i stood , and if it was a possibility for me. i think if i play my cards right , i can make it happen for me....i hope. the rental is an option i had looked into as well and that may be a route to take for a couple years and see if it's worth actually buying one.

and Ron....DUDE!! i didn't know you had any experience in a Pitts Bro! damn it , i wish i would have picked your brain about this earlier.I've only flown with you about a 100 times.....sheeeesh! I will be giving you call for sure!

Thanks again guys!!

I have 75 hours in the S-2A, S-2B, S-2C. Those will cost you upwards of $70K for 2 seats. The single seat S-1S is cheaper at around $30K. Unless you go with a flat wing S-1C or D Any of the symetrical wing Pitts' will be more capable an airplane than you will likely ever be as its pilot. In other words your skills will most likely always be the limiting factor not the airplanes performance, unless you just happen to have amazing natural talent.

Steve Wolf is the worlds premier Pitts mod guru, truly a master craftsman. When Sean Tucker wants new wings built, Steve Wolf builds them for him. Steve Wolf designed most every mod Sean Tucker uses and now we see them on many Pitts' The new cowling, the new wings, the modified RV style landing gear, new tail, etc. You are lucky to have Steve Wolf so close to you, if you buy a Pitts get your training from him and you wont regret it. His time is surely not cheap but worth it.

If you can get your private pilot certificate training in a tailwheel airplane to build tailwheel hours you will have a much easier time getting insurance for your Pitts when the time comes.

Make sure you buy several rides with a compatent Pitts driver, Steve Wolf can get the job done, to see if you really like the G's that come with the territory. I used to do upset training for the airlines and out of 25 pilots to take the course only 2 pilots really liked what was going on and came back for more and wanted to push the limits. Aerobatic airplanes are like farms, very easy to buy and very difficult to sell!!!!

That should of read that for every group of 25 pilots only 1 came back for more.

Jeff/Jeffro (?)

All the above is very good advice. A Pitts Special is more bang for the buck than most, if not all other aerobatic planes, and as you've seen, good used examples are much more affordable. I flew a factory-built Pitts S1-T from 1984-1992 and had over 1000 hours it with 800+ of aerobatics before I sold it. Most of those 800 hrs were competing (and winning) in the Unlimited Category.

The "T" model was, and probably still is the finest of the factory single-seat Pitts Specials using the 4-cyl Lycoming, and will take a competent pilot easily through Advanced and into the Unlimited level if he/she has the skills. Although in today's Unlimited class, it is NOT a competitive aircraft. When I retired from competition and airshows in 1992 it was already behind the power-to-weight curve....not to mention its size/shape being a detriment against the mono-wings....from the judges' perspective.

BTW - although someone mentioned the S2-B in Unlimited, it really doesn't have the performance to be competitive and would most likely be a struggle in today's Advanced category. It is a great aircraft for the lower levels and aerobatic training though!

Feel free to PM me and I'll forward my tel# if you'd like to discuss further.

Earle
1988 IAC Unlimited Aerobatic Champion

The Pitts S-2B can compete easily in advanced. I have a friend in our IAC chapter that has a stock "B" and he does very well in advanced. My point in that was trying to show these planes have much more performance than people think, and the pilot is the limiting factor 99.9% of the time instead of the aircraft. Scott

Originally Posted by ScottM

The Pitts S-2B can compete easily in advanced. I have a friend in our IAC chapter that has a stock "B" and he does very well in advanced. My point in that was trying to show these planes have much more performance than people think, and the pilot is the limiting factor 99.9% of the time instead of the aircraft. Scott

No problem Scott. I didn't know whether they've started including vertical "up" snaps in advanced with a fly-off on the top....an S2-B struggles with that, especially on a hot day.

When I first started flying the Pitts I did some training with Bill Thomas in Florida, and after a week I thought the S2-B was THE greatest thing since sliced bread. UNTIL I got into the S1-T....that plane was/is a WHOLE level up in performance capabilities. 840 lbs dry, 200HP....yeehaa!!!

Amen on the limiting factor....us !!!!

Earle

I had a S-1C years ago. It was a rag-tag conglomeration of hand-me-down parts. Once it was all together, by golly it was PITTS! I learned a lot about covering and sanding and MORE sanding and finally paint. I also learned that landing a '47 Champ versus landing a Pitts is like the difference in slow motion and fast motion. Also, rudder pedals are used in both planes...... The Champ has pedals that can be used for foot rests. The Pitts has pedals that will make you a pretty good contestant on "Dancing With The Stars!" As far as up-keep, ALL planes are a money pit and they just vary with their complexity. My Pitts and the Champ were works in progress. Toss a couple of kids into the mix and real airplanes turn into a fond past memory. My son and I were thick into the models and he was just getting into the real ones. Now I'm eying the future and something that you can get INTO is sounding very appealing. The only limitation now is that operating cost! The only "cheap" planes to operate are the high time ones. Then the cheapness of the deal goes away as soon as you start taking one apart for an annual! The only really good deals come about when someone is just flat tired of being an aircraft owner and they'll part with it for a song. That's when being at the right place at the right time is what it's all about! Good luck!
WT