I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?I tahnk you will be fnie.

Originally Posted by RMaia

In my opinion it wouldn't make much sense.

First for the reason that was already mentioned, the amount of work involved in making a ~30cc engine is about the same as in a ~50cc one, so cost wouldn't be much different, maybe slightly less due to less materials being needed, but no "huge" differences there.

Second, which to me would be the most important reason is power to weight ratios. I may be wrong, but it seems like these smaller gasser engines have rather poor power to weight ratios when compared to similar displacement glow engines. It's not all about having gobs of power, you also need to keep the plane light if you want good performance. An overpowered plane with a high wing loading will be good only at hovering and pulling out, all other maneuvers will suffer a lot.

With this in mind, for 120 sized models glow still makes more sense, the engines cost less (no need for the cost associated with the electronic ignition module), are lighter (not only due to their construction and smaller size for same power output, but again no need for ignition module, ignition battery, switch and all that) and overall simpler.

In my opinion, gassers start to make sense only at 45~50cc. Again, in my point of view, DA would do more good by focusing on the "higher" end of the displacement range, like their rumored release of the 170cc. People seem to be "squeezing" the last bits of power from the 150's by using them on the ever larger models. A 170 makes a lot of sense there. That would be for me the right direction to go. Also because with the advances in construction techniques, the models are getting larger while keeping the same weight. I wouldn't be surprised to see 45%'rs weighing below 40 lbs being commonplace in the near future.

ya - you cover it well!!!

I have been around engines most my life - my old man is an engine fiddler - lol - anyway my point is that under 50cc gas engines just dont cut it for 3D - they work fine for war birds, cub's and all those planes but for us - NO!! - now over time we have tried all the small gas engines - 3w26/28cc, mvvs/evo 26/35cc, the zenoa 's and a few more even some nice looking Chinese engines at great prices - NO POWER!!!! when you take a Moki 180/210, a os160, mvvs 160 and the rest they are are just so much better - in fact a moki 180/210 has almost the same power as the 50cc engines out there at half the weight - my point is that maybe we should let it rest a little until somebody really have the time to develop a real lightweight - who remebers those blue engines from the east - man they were pretty?? i have a pic(48cc) but cant remember the name - ys/yf???

I think the horse has been well and truly flogged here but here's my two cents worth as well.

The difference in price between a 50cc and 30cc and a 25cc is absolutely zero when it comes to manufacturing costs. Your likely looking at $2:00 in materials. Its the R&D and labor that costs the money in small motors these days.

As for power I don't think you can ever get the power to weight out of a small gasser compared to a glow motor. Thats a simple matter of physics. Theres just so much bang in a cc of gasoline. Compared to glow fuel with nitro etc they are yards apart as far as potential power goes. The other limiting factor with gas is RPM. You could get a small gasser to develop some reasonable power if you could run it at 15,000 to 20,000 rpm. But that does not suit our application.

I think we're stuck with glow or electrics below that magic 50cc mark when it comes to power, response, weight etc.

But then again thats just my humble opinion.

I would like to have a DA25 which is affordable. I hear anything over a 50 makes you a snob, not interested in those.

YW engines

Originally Posted by adrian

ya - you cover it well!!!

I have been around engines most my life - my old man is an engine fiddler - lol - anyway my point is that under 50cc gas engines just dont cut it for 3D - they work fine for war birds, cub's and all those planes but for us - NO!! - now over time we have tried all the small gas engines - 3w26/28cc, mvvs/evo 26/35cc, the zenoa 's and a few more even some nice looking Chinese engines at great prices - NO POWER!!!! when you take a Moki 180/210, a os160, mvvs 160 and the rest they are are just so much better - in fact a moki 180/210 has almost the same power as the 50cc engines out there at half the weight - my point is that maybe we should let it rest a little until somebody really have the time to develop a real lightweight - who remebers those blue engines from the east - man they were pretty?? i have a pic(48cc) but cant remember the name - ys/yf???

Are you thinking of YW?

Great idea! I flew and tested the DA50 and am a die-hard DA fan. Love to see an engine in the 30cc range rear carb and exhaust that could power pattern as well as 3D planes. DA as an entire entity is a credit to our hobby and american enterprise, a fine example.

Why so negative Jens?

Joe

Originally Posted by JoeKelley

Great idea! I flew and tested the DA50 and am a die-hard DA fan. Love to see an engine in the 30cc range rear carb and exhaust that could power pattern as well as 3D planes. DA as an entire entity is a credit to our hobby and american enterprise, a fine example.

Why so negative Jens?

Joe

Because I'm keeping it real, but on this site, what I see as real or post as productive critisism, Max and others see as "unsolicited opinnion" or as being negative.

Yes, the hypothetical 2.1 lb BME55X would have been awesome in a 2x2m pattern plane, but anything smaller doesn't have a leg to stand on against a DZ160, so what the heck are you going to fly with a 30cc gas engine, really???

there are a lot of planes out there that people do in fact fly and dont (so call) huck with. its a good thing that zenoah dosent think like this. or first place. and iam shure that their are more that i cant think of right now. i would take a gas motor over a glow motor all day, if for nothing other than the fuel price. not every one on this site flys 3-d or wants too. you can be a hucker without doing it 1 inch off the ground, or flying a 5000.00 plane. if DA made a smaller motor they would own the market in my mind. it dosent matter if someone wanted to use it in a cub, they would still be flying the best

Since when would DA want to be compared with a Zenoah?

Originally Posted by 50%plane

Since when would DA want to be compared with a Zenoah?

you guys are frigging hopeless did anyone compare any motor to another??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

If DA wants to stay "Cutting Edge" and ahead of the curve...
Dave Johnson better start learning about magnets and outrunners!!!!

I hear ya Mith!
Jens I don't see what you mean but I respect you. The topic is kinda fun and that is the only thing I am in this for, not that anyone else is in for anything else. If it's got wings or rotors, I'll fly it or try to. I've flown very expensive large and small models and cheap ones too, bottom line is, I fly for fun. DA30cc on a very nice small easy to transport plane that is backed by the DA name and service would fit into my RC diet perfectly. Like Mith said though, electric IS becoming an excellent choice, even in this size. I love my fliton inspire mini. Got a ton of time on it. Fly what you like. !~).

Joe

Originally Posted by Mithrandir

If DA wants to stay "Cutting Edge" and ahead of the curve...
Dave Johnson better start learning about magnets and outrunners!!!!

Jensy, quite frankly, this entire website is an unsolicited opinion. Not trying to be a jerk, just making sure everyone remains friends, and enjoys themselves.

And to the topic, I think it would be cool to see a wider variety of engines in the 25-35cc class as we've seen the big 3d aerobats get smaller over the past few years with similar performance. The more choices we have as consumers, the better. I voted yes.

Concur with Mr. JoeKelly as well. How you doin' by the way bro?

I think it would be a good thing for DA - and us as modelers.
The rear carb would sell me simply because it is needed to help cowl-in this plane's powerplant. All the current choices are broad wasted overly fat ( relative to their smaller size) engines already out there. Too damn much width with muff & carb on the sides. Using same boxy carb as a G65 size!

I shelved a GP Ryan Sta-M ( redone fuse & pants covering in bright aluminum) two years ago simply because I don't want to cut a huge freakin' holes in the side - or pay $550 for a petrol converted Mark-MOKI . So I be awaitin' for ya DA- note this polls #'s are proving a 25cc worthwhile.

I think warbird guys would scarf em.
I'll be happy to purchase #0001.